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  1. #5626
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    This is my order for Peak...who I draft at there best.
    1. Bron
    2. Jordan
    3. Shaq
    4. Kareem
    5. Wilt
    6. Dream
    7. Drob
    8. Duncan
    9. Durant
    10. Curry
    11. Wade
    12. Bird
    13.Magic
    14.KG
    15.Tmac
    16. Kobe
    17.Dr J
    18.K Malone
    19.Barkley
    20.Big O
    Wow lol. I just think you are totally trolling most of the time and there is no way you are serious. The only thing we agree on literally is Big O at number 20.

  2. #5627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Not when we account for the fact that LBJ's numbers are going to be inflated because he's dominating the ball so much. The entire system is LBJ having the ball. Kobe also played with that dominant player before he was in his prime and so it's not quite the advantage that you're making it out to be.
    Yeah but not only are they larger numbers, they are more efficient numbers, so when Bron tries to do something positive, he does it at a higher rate than Kobe. So even if we give him the same touches as Kobe...per touch he is going to be better than Kobe. Nobody has ever been as much of a ball hog as Kobe accept maybe Allen Iverson. Kobe shot more than Lebron in the playoffs and his scoring numbers are worse.

  3. #5628
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    I'm an old head here, post mainly in the Lakers forum.

    I'm not even really into this comparing Kobe and LBJ. The #s are whack cause they approached the game differently. All's I know that if they played 1 on 1 I'd go with Kobe. It's not the size of the dog in the fight but rather the size of the fight in the dog.

    And even if Kobe were to win, that doesn't necessariuly make him better. Magic is a consensus top 8 player of all time but there's at least 25 players I would take over him playing 1 on 1. Would that make them better then Magic? I guess the answer would have to be yes if that's what we're talking about, playing 1 on 1. But I'm sure this thread is 5 on 5 and there's just too many variables involved.
    Exactly five on five indeed:

    Romeo Naes, KnicksorBust, Bigmoves03, McAllen Tx, and NYKalltheway vs. ldawg, IKnowHoops, mngopher35, vlade16, and OceanSpray.

  4. #5629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Problem is that Kobe and Sahq only played about 2-4 years together where both were stars (and only about 2 of those involved prime shaq). Let's see what happens this year and then we will have more context. No excuses either way, since you've already come out and said that this is the best LBJ team he has ever had and you guys have argued that present LBJ is better than prime Kobe (and the analytics support this; which is laughable and should call them into question for any reasonable person, but that's a different issue altogether), so I'm definitely expecting a title this year or there will be a lot of questions to answer on here.
    Problem is Lebron isn’t in his Prime anymore, and the fact Bron is still a star at this stage is more reasoning to why he’s better. And again, the best star Bron had where both were in there Prime is Kyrie. And even when Shaq was declining, he was still better than Kobe and against Detroit it showed. Kobe getting better hurt them because he played out of pocket, ballhogged hard and was wildly inefficient and lost it for his team based on his inefficient chucking.

  5. #5630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    I'm not saying there is not an argument for LeBron being the best in 08-11, or 14-16. Just that there were arguments for others as well. It was not clear cut, but he was in the convo as well. It's not all about his stats for sure. There was a hot debate between him and Kobe in 08-10 and between Durant and Curry from 14-16. This is fact and there is more than enough internet debates and sports shows to prove it. I wouldn't mind is someone though he was the best during these years, just saying it was their personal preference, but acknowledging that there were other contenders to that title. It was as clear cut for him as it was in 2012, and 2013. Those two years were definitely undebatable. It's unfair use the NBA Finals to judge Curry in 2016, because he was not at full strength and in 2015, LeBron had a ton of additional usage to cover up for the loss of Kyrie and Love. Hard to compare them based on their performance, because their roles were a lot different. Curry lit up the league in 2015, and 2016. Durant was pretty damn good too, he was just held back by Westy.



    Agreed.



    I give him credit for his three titles, because he has them. Nothing can be done to change that. I have to factor them into his all-time ranking. As I said before, not all titles are created equal. We must look at each and truly evaluate the level of dominance the player had, the circumstances surrounding, and the teams and help they had. I'm sure a bunch of other factors as well. In 2013, Pop just kinda threw that one in the garbage if you ask me. He was up by double figures in the fourth quarter and pulled out his starters including Kawhi with LeBron still in the game. I mean, I understand his methodology to rest his players, but come one man lol, you are on the brink of a title. If you are not resting them for this moment, then what are you resting them for. I can only think that the method to his madness was to totally demoralize LeBron by completely destroy his confidence by toying with him. IDK lol. Completely horrible mistake. LeBron capitalized. In 2016, as I said, it was imperative that GSW was the superior team after the first four games and then LeBron caught a huge break thanks the the NBA deciding to suspend Draymond and the series of unfortunate events that transpired soon after. I'm fine without adding hypotheticals, just as long as the Bronnies stop with all of theirs as well, like what if LeBron had Phil, and what if LeBron had Pippen and Rodman or Prime Shaq. The sword cuts both ways.



    It's just a response to all the recency bias that is going on right now. All the Kobe guys have seemed to accept his place in history and are no longer claiming his 2nd GOAT. I'm sure that a few years after LeBron's retirement, his place in history will be more accurately depicted. I said it could have been called a Goaltend. 50/50 call. Big surprise, it went his way. Just the way it is. Not really a sticking point for me honestly. Just brought it up because we were talking about the luck factor and all in in a close game like that in game seven, every call and play counts. I'm basically saying, that his ranking all-time is not set in stone now and is subject to recency bias. I've never been one to by into the hype or recency bias. He is not clear cut ahead of Kobe and that is not a forgone conclusion. That is all I'm saying. You have him as three, not one or two, so I can tell you are somewhat rational on the topic. I have him 8 at the highest, and I do consider myself somewhat rational as well, so likely the truth is somewhere in the middle. We just both have to come to a place where we would be open to amending our lists. Probly not gonna happen anytime soon I would imagine lol.
    There are technically always "arguments" for others, the question is how much validity do they have and so on. Is it based in reality/context and can it be broken down and defended which often is not the case. If you see it as between those years then all between it was him at 1 correct? That is still 11/12/13 at the top then I guess but I still stand by the arguments in 14 and so on were not very good. I have heard arguments about Shaq's peak or Hakeem since he won the year MJ came back and it being more about MJ's support but I don't include outliers/weaker arguments here. I am saying to most people these guys were/are considered the best of the time frames looking back within context and so on. There is always some debates happening at the time about players.

    I agree no titles are created equal, what you often do is try to look at any way to downgrade Lebrons actual performance based on other factors. For example now Pop was just being a bad coach and that is a big reason here. Lebron caught a huge break a player acted out in game leading to suspension after having it be an issue for him in the past unrelated to this series too. This isn't about how Lebron played and so on it is trying to make excuses that we can downgrade the overall accomplishment. As I have noted you can point to lack of competition for Kobe in 09/Injuries to KG and his poor play in 10 and question individually just how good he is given all of those factors. Has he ever lead a team in the same fashion to a title against great competition? I would say no so even if you question pop and so on his individual performances still outshine other top 10 players quite clearly in comparison.

    The difference is they are not the same player and Lebron has long been considered better to many and most at this point have him as better too. This is the main reason why he is ranked higher, it was only kobe fanboys doing this with him before but people have shared tons of rankings at this point showing Lebron there it isn't just a set group it's all over people having this opinion with him near the top. Focusing on a call most agree with in itself just kinda shows where you are at and the agenda here lol. It isn't set in stone because no ones is but the majority of people at this point understand his greatness and don't try and diminish it like a few posters on this site regularly do (often Kobe/Laker fans).
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-28-2020 at 12:22 AM.

  6. #5631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Fine by me. It's only the LBJ guys on here who are trying to take away Kobe's titles so that it can fit their narrative.
    And you said you take away from Brons titles because “his team was stacke”. You said you rate them low.

  7. #5632
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    Actually, losing before the finals <<<<<<<<<<<<<< losing in the finals.

    So 3/7 is better than 3/3. 4/14 is better than 4/4n and so on.



    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Nah man, not really. It's honestly a trivial difference, but you really can't argue that point because LBJ played in the East which was horrible. There's not really any disputing that. If LBJ had that finals run playing in the West then sure, that carries some weight, but not in the East. I mean, some of those teams would've likely been eliminated in the first or second round if they were in the west.

  8. #5633
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Problem is Lebron isn’t in his Prime anymore, and the fact Bron is still a star at this stage is more reasoning to why he’s better. And again, the best star Bron had where both were in there Prime is Kyrie. And even when Shaq was declining, he was still better than Kobe and against Detroit it showed. Kobe getting better hurt them because he played out of pocket, ballhogged hard and was wildly inefficient and lost it for his team based on his inefficient chucking.
    Nah, LBJ had Wade for at least part of his prime. At least 2 years of his prime.

  9. #5634
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    And you said you take away from Brons titles because “his team was stacke”. You said you rate them low.
    I don't rate them lower so much as I expect a few more titles from LBJ to put him in the top 5.

  10. #5635
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    There are technically always "arguments" for others, the question is how much validity do they have and so on. Is it based in reality/context and can it be broken down and defended which often is not the case. If you see it as between those years then all between it was him at 1 correct? That is still 11/12/13 at the top then I guess but I still stand by the arguments in 14 and so on were not very good. I have heard arguments about Shaq's peak or Hakeem since he won the year MJ came back and it being more about MJ's support but I don't include outliers/weaker arguments here. I am saying to most people these guys were/are considered the best of the time frames looking back within context and so on. There is always some debates happening at the time about players.
    LeBron was a top level talent at least top three and could be argued for the one spot from 09-17. He was the undisputed best in 2012, and 2013. Kobe was a top level talent at least top three and could be argued for the top spot from 03-10. He was undisputed best in 06-08 most would agree. Also, most would agree top five since 2001 on to 2010. Shaq was the undisputed best from about 99-02 and top level from about 99-05. Though his peak was the best we'd ever seen. Hakeem reigned the top spot pretty much undisputedly from 94-96. He was never in the conversation however, because all those other years in his absolute peak, Jordan was there. Though it could be argued that Hakeem was the most complete center of all-time.


    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I agree no titles are created equal, what you often do is try to look at any way to downgrade Lebrons actual performance based on other factors. For example now Pop was just being a bad coach and that is a big reason here. Lebron caught a huge break a player acted out in game leading to suspension after having it be an issue for him in the past unrelated to this series too. This isn't about how Lebron played and so on it is trying to make excuses that we can downgrade the overall accomplishment. As I have noted you can point to lack of competition for Kobe in 09/Injuries to KG and his poor play in 10 and question individually just how good he is given all of those factors. Has he ever lead a team in the same fashion to a title against great competition? I would say no so even if you question pop and so on his individual performances still outshine other top 10 players quite clearly in comparison.
    Yes, we have to take Kobe's 09 title into account as well. I just couldn't see Kobe drawing attention to a confrontation he had with a player following an NBA Finals game where he was down in a series in a press conference and then using his sway to lobby behind the scenes to get him suspended so that he could gain an advantage to get back in the series the way LeBron did to Draymond. Kobe is not the type of guy who wold want to win that way. He would fall on his sword before resorting to those tactics. It is that sort of mentality why I personally give Kobe a slight edge over LBJ. Mamba Mentality lol. Though, I do not have a problem with people ranking LBJ slightly higher as well. It's all about what you prefer and LBJ did lead a team to three titles as the best player while Kobe only did it twice. The biggest thing Kobe has going against him imho is that his first three titles came with Shaq as the best player. Kobe did take down a really good Denver team in 09 with Chauncey who is very underrated and easily a top pg of his era imho. Kobe also beat more 50 plus win teams in his time and had to make it through the West while LeBron had an easier time in the East.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    The difference is they are not the same player and Lebron has long been considered better to many and most at this point have him as better too. This is the main reason why he is ranked higher, it was only kobe fanboys doing this with him before but people have shared tons of rankings at this point showing Lebron there it isn't just a set group it's all over people having this opinion with him near the top. Focusing on a call most agree with in itself just kinda shows where you are at and the agenda here lol. It isn't set in stone because no ones is but the majority of people at this point understand his greatness and don't try and diminish it like a few posters on this site regularly do (often Kobe/Laker fans).
    It's not only Laker fans bro. Two of the main dudes on here arguing are Knicks fans and the other guy I've seen a Boston fan. The only one I've seen with a Lakers logo is McAllenTx. There are many former players who rank Kobe higher and or do not have LBJ in their top five and a few members of the main steam media who do not as well. Though I would argue the media is always subject to recency bias and marketing agendas, which is why I always say it's best to wait a few years after the player retires to get a true idea of what their ranking truly should be. I think that is more than fair to say. It is not the forgone conclusion you are making it out to be. We seem to agree on where Kobe ranks, so you can't really accuse me of homerism there. Top 8-11 is very fair to me and it seems you agree as well. We only don't agree on LBJ, Russell, Wilt and Magic. I think Magic has to be top five because he is the undisputed best at his position though. I can understand ranking Bird ahead of him slightly though, as I agree, his peak was easily better and I think overall, he adds more dynamic and impact to a team. It's mainly the accomplishments of Magic and his acceptance as the best pg of all-time that I have him one above Larry on my list.

    Here is a poll from Aug 2, 2017 with 90997 votes that has Kobe ahead of LeBron with 60% of the people agreeing. This is a year after his Cleveland title too. Not sure what has really change on his resume since then to change the outcome honestly. Not really a majority of people agreeing that LBJ has taken him all-time. Here is the proof. More proof than anyone on his site has been able to produce too might I add. https://www.espn.com/sportsnation/st...es-kobe-bryant
    Last edited by Romeo Naes; 05-28-2020 at 04:33 AM.

  11. #5636
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    I've noticed that this big_moves03 guy is getting nastier and his comments become more trollish as every page passes. this dude must be getting emotional. I mean, take a break and go call your girlfriend, parents, or something... we get it, you hate LeBron but stop torturing everyone with these garbage takes. Thank you
    its hilarious at this point... he thinks by having 2 well known lebron haters and another laker fan that it somehow justifies his opinions even though we have fans of many teams in here saying lebron without a 2nd thought.... yet he still thinks he is right without ever bringing anything of substance and backing it up. He is adorable.

  12. #5637
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You are simply wrong about it being statistical, it is about my own overall criteria and I have covered tons of what I look at in the threads. Winning always comes with context and Duncan/Russell specifically have all time great defense anchor types along with very good offense even if not that highest level the others don't come near them on D impact often. Some players not winning might not hurt as much if they weren't on as great of teams as others in the era and so on. Oscar is a very tough one as it is often based on footage which there isn't tons of and then just how much more you can look up and learn over time but he doesn't seem to have nearly the same decision making flaws which is huge. He was consistently a top assist guy while being top like 3 or so scorer in the league too and pretty efficient too which is big. I am fine lowering him. It isn't just stats, that is just what you are focused on but if you have specific issues with his game and so on let me know or if you wanna dig in actually analytics I would be fine too but not basic bringing up Westy lol.

    Magic and Bird were the top guys of their era, I think Bird was better at his peak which has him just a little higher. Again you are focused on like stats in a weird general sense, no adjusting for comparing own time period and so on it seems. That matters more than just some raw look at data you seem to be trying to do. Defense matters in my ranking so that helps explain a lot of what you are saying and volume alone isn't quite as important.

    I will also let you know I do not have Kobe that low, while close that isn't my actual list there would be some other movement but I stand by what I just said above about Duncan/Russell/Bird/Magic and do have all of them around that range stated (Kobe is actually in the Hakeem/Russell range to me borderline top 10). I was not sober when I made that list lol. I do have West up there too but Kobe is actually over him to me. Sorry I was being sarcastic and the hypocrisy to follow in Valade/Big Moves convo was why I probably did that just to see the arguments flip like that, Kobe is right in the top 10 range to me. I would put Drob over Barkley for starters before the guys you mention and Thomas is an easy no to me tbh. Wade could be an argument for sure.
    let me help you out here because the 2 other laker fans seem to be doing it.... GOOD POST lol... it really is a good post unlike their crap.

  13. #5638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    LeBron was a top level talent at least top three and could be argued for the one spot from 09-17. He was the undisputed best in 2012, and 2013. Kobe was a top level talent at least top three and could be argued for the top spot from 03-10. He was undisputed best in 06-08 most would agree. Also, most would agree top five since 2001 on to 2010. Shaq was the undisputed best from about 99-02 and top level from about 99-05. Though his peak was the best we'd ever seen. Hakeem reigned the top spot pretty much undisputedly from 94-96. He was never in the conversation however, because all those other years in his absolute peak, Jordan was there. Though it could be argued that Hakeem was the most complete center of all-time.




    Yes, we have to take Kobe's 09 title into account as well. I just couldn't see Kobe drawing attention to a confrontation he had with a player following an NBA Finals game where he was down in a series in a press conference and then using his sway to lobby behind the scenes to get him suspended so that he could gain an advantage to get back in the series the way LeBron did to Draymond. Kobe is not the type of guy who wold want to win that way. He would fall on his sword before resorting to those tactics. It is that sort of mentality why I personally give Kobe a slight edge over LBJ. Mamba Mentality lol. Though, I do not have a problem with people ranking LBJ slightly higher as well. It's all about what you prefer and LBJ did lead a team to three titles as the best player while Kobe only did it twice. The biggest thing Kobe has going against him imho is that his first three titles came with Shaq as the best player. Kobe did take down a really good Denver team in 09 with Chauncey who is very underrated and easily a top pg of his era imho. Kobe also beat more 50 plus win teams in his time and had to make it through the West while LeBron had an easier time in the East.



    It's not only Laker fans bro. Two of the main dudes on here arguing are Knicks fans and the other guy I've seen a Boston fan. The only one I've seen with a Lakers logo is McAllenTx. There are many former players who rank Kobe higher and or do not have LBJ in their top five and a few members of the main steam media who do not as well. Though I would argue the media is always subject to recency bias and marketing agendas, which is why I always say it's best to wait a few years after the player retires to get a true idea of what their ranking truly should be. I think that is more than fair to say. It is not the forgone conclusion you are making it out to be. We seem to agree on where Kobe ranks, so you can't really accuse me of homerism there. Top 8-11 is very fair to me and it seems you agree as well. We only don't agree on LBJ, Russell, Wilt and Magic. I think Magic has to be top five because he is the undisputed best at his position though. I can understand ranking Bird ahead of him slightly though, as I agree, his peak was easily better and I think overall, he adds more dynamic and impact to a team. It's mainly the accomplishments of Magic and his acceptance as the best pg of all-time that I have him one above Larry on my list.
    no.... no he couldnt lol.... in what world could kobe be argued the top spot in more then 2 of those years at best? wtf lol

    would you like to see some fan votes? How about some coaching polls... or hell how about the ****ing espy awards lol

    my god
    Last edited by More-Than-Most; 05-28-2020 at 04:33 AM.

  14. #5639
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    no.... no he couldnt lol.... in what world could kobe be argued the top spot in more then 2 of those years at best? wtf lol

    would you like to see some fan votes? How about some coaching polls... or hell how about the ****ing espy awards lol

    my god
    Such an insightful argument you make. How could I not see the light and completely switch my opinion now.

    Here is a poll taken in August of 2017 (a year after your Idol's title in Cleveland) with 90997 people polled where 60% of the people across the nation polled pick Kobe over your boy. Just stop acting like there is some sort of majority consensus in your favor because there really isn't. What really changed from 2017 till now on LeBron's resume to sway that 60% of voters? https://www.espn.com/sportsnation/st...es-kobe-bryant

  15. #5640
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    Even Bruce Blitz who was in LeBron's corner for a long time has LeBron ranked number nine all-time and Kobe at number seven. He's got mostly thumbs up on his video too might I add. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUFrOd4yVDQ

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