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  1. #5161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Sure, if they had played together during Kobe's prime. Kobe was only 21 in 2000. Big, big difference. Pau was never a superstar. Kobe was a superstar. Pau was never a #1, Kobe was a #1 after 2000. Again, big, big difference. And again, you didn't even watch those games so you're basing your opinion on boxscores and what other people are saying.
    I beg the differ Pau was a superstar. What you wanted Kobe team with Nash Kidd or a big man? Name all the superstar center/pf back then? Pau was a star. He led the grizzlies to the playoffs the same time kobe was not able to so. Is that saying he was better than Kobe? No but he was a top player. Is that not what you said about love? And if you list the greatest pf of all time donít be surprised you see Pau crack top 20. Kobe had no experience of leading a team Phil loaded the team with vets + Shaq. They were not looking at Kobe as the leader. Sure he was a star but so was Pau.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-26-2020 at 11:01 AM.

  2. #5162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He was being sarcastic in response to another poster. Some of these guys are saying Kobe should only get a quarter credit for his rings. What that sort of thing shows is what I've been saying all along, which is that there is a strong bias here that is pro LBJ and anti Kobe. I definitely agree with you in terms of how credit should be partitioned for Kobe's titles
    Only MTM said that in jest after McAllen made that ridiculous claim. ďSome of the guysĒ? What the hell are you talking about?

    Itís not anti-Kobe/Lebron cucks if you believe Lebron was better but it sure as **** seems like the ďKobe is betterĒ guys are anti-Lebron/Kobe cucks.

  3. #5163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He was being sarcastic in response to another poster. Some of these guys are saying Kobe should only get a quarter credit for his rings. What that sort of thing shows is what I've been saying all along, which is that there is a strong bias here that is pro LBJ and anti Kobe. I definitely agree with you in terms of how credit should be partitioned for Kobe's titles
    Taking away rings is pretty silly unless it is an extreme situation like Gary Payton on Miami. His legacy is all about his Sonics career.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Kobe is held to a higher standard...he won 5 titles, a 3-peat and a back-to-back. He met that standard. No one has won a 3-peat in over 20 years and it will be at least another 3 before it's done again. Those types of accomplishments carry significantly more weight because of how rare they are. Kobe met his standard and LBJ hasn't. He still can, he's still playing, but he hasn't as of yet.
    Do you give any weight to the fact that LeBron has clearly been the superior regular season player?

    Points = LeBron
    Rebounds = LeBron
    Assists = LeBron
    Steals = LeBron
    Blocks = LeBron
    MVPs = LeBron


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  4. #5164
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I'm not building a negative story, I'm just playing down the positives because they are overblown by exaggeration as if Lebron did everything by himself in Cleveland and that Wade and Bosh or the rest of the guys were irrelevant. Heck, even Haslem and Chalmers were solid players in Miami for them, but replace them with two of the Cavs guys he had and the results are probably the same. You wouldn't be saying "but he didn't have Haslem and Chalmers".

    At the end of the day, for historical purposes of legacy, these role players are irrelevant. Not by me, but by history. Nobody really knows Buechler, Wennington and these other guys from the Bulls teams. They are both replaceable and forgettable. If you ask 99% of fans that weren't watching back in the 90s, they'd be surprised to see that these guys won 3 rings and that they were part of this dynasty. I forgot all about Buechler myself until I saw him in that first episode of the Last Dance. Decent player of course, but not one worthy of note. There were 100 like him in the league.
    Going up to Steve Kerr, again, a good guard that could pass, shoot and be a decent playmaker but he was replaceable. The Bulls' timeline doesn't change without Kerr, there were at least 20 other non-star guards in the league that could pull the same role with the same results more or less.

    The point is that while depth is important and I advocate for deep benches as I have a strong European influence in basketball where you can go 12 man deep every night, the talent pool does not limit teams from forming solid rosters and contenders. The Chicago Bulls weren't a super team, not in 1991-93, not in 1996-98. They had some great players, but so did other teams.
    Same for the 60s and 80s and 2000s. In the 2010s, you did not have to taem up Lebron with Wade and Bosh in order to get to the Finals. You could have built a team around either of the three (or others) and have a contender. But they decided to eliminate the competition. That's what the moral of this tale is. You can call it a genius loophole, I call it cowardness and testament of lack of character. And since it's "Lebron's team", not my words, he gets the most blame for this.

    The only other guy in a sort of similar situation was Shaq, but he had pretty much told everyone he was leaving Orlando and he didn't form some superteam, he left to get paid. The fact that a 17 year old Kobe was there was not in his mind and he didn't form no superteam with 2 other top stars.

    Just to give you an idea, the 1996 free agency included:
    Michael Jordan
    Shaquille O'Neal
    Reggie Miller
    Charles Barkley
    Tim Hardaway
    Dikembe Mutombo
    Alonzo Mourning
    Allan Houston
    Horace Grant
    Juwan Howard
    Dale Davis
    Kenny Anderson
    (Magic Johnson)

    He didn't ask any of these guys to come join him, he didn't ask the Lakers to persuade Magic to stay one more season which he could easily do and be even better than his cameo 1996 appearance, but you can argue that he left because he felt that he couldn't win in Orlando with the re-emergence of Chicago and that he was 'chased away' by Jordan. Yet he still wanted to do it his way. He didn't join a team of champions but a team of yesteryears. He joined a team with no MVP candidates and Kobe was a 17 year old nobody, benched by Eddie Jones.

    This is the closest situation close to Lebron I can think of. Which other NBA star left his top seed or Conference Final team in free agency during his prime when all they needed was "a little help" to win the Championship? Most of them leave bad situations, if they can, but both the Cavs and the Magic were in great positions. But the direction these stars took was completely different. Am I painting a negative picture for Lebron here and a positive for Shaq? It's actually a negative for both, but it does look a lot worse for Lebron, doesn't it? Well, that's because it is, not because I have any bias for reporting what happened, just like the morning weather dude doesn't cause rain at night just because he said it's gonna rain.
    That's why they say it's a star driven league because the wellington and beuchlers of the world don't carry teams.

    Also while other teams did have multiple stars like Penny and Shaq, Payton and Kemp, Stockton and Malon etc. Jordan and Pippen were by far the best tandem. You add a third defensive star in Rodman and you have a big three plus solid role players in Harper, Kukoch, Kerr etc. For its time that's a juggernaut of a team. His teams were def stacked. Especially when he came back for the 2nd three peat.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 05-26-2020 at 12:03 PM.

  5. #5165
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Taking away rings is pretty silly unless it is an extreme situation like Gary Payton on Miami. His legacy is all about his Sonics career.



    Do you give any weight to the fact that LeBron has clearly been the superior regular season player?

    Points = LeBron
    Rebounds = LeBron
    Assists = LeBron
    Steals = LeBron
    Blocks = LeBron
    MVPs = LeBron
    Lebron is held to a higher standard remember and what about ring he donít have 5. letís not forget the competition wait did I leave out he built an artificial team with Wade. Come on Kobe is better.

  6. #5166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Maybe you should grow a pair and ask me yourself. He demanded a trade because the lakers had multiple chances to bring in talent and continued to pass. I don't hold it against LBJ for artificially stacking his team with talent and creating a talent vacuum as a result of that, I hold it against him that with those prime players he didn't meet the standards that this move created for him and lost twice to far less talented teams. Dirk beat the heat with zero other all-star caliber players. The spurs did the same with a lesser star in Tony Parker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Kobe is held to a higher standard...he won 5 titles, a 3-peat and a back-to-back. He met that standard. No one has won a 3-peat in over 20 years and it will be at least another 3 before it's done again. Those types of accomplishments carry significantly more weight because of how rare they are. Kobe met his standard and LBJ hasn't. He still can, he's still playing, but he hasn't as of yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, that's not true at all..there are plenty of people who agree with me, on this thread alone. They just often leave once they're group shamed for having a different opinion. It's not a criticism to hold a guy who has arguably more opportunities than any player in NBA history to a higher standard of winning than those who had far lesser opportunities. How many top 10 players were able to pick their star teammates during the entirety of their primes? As I've said, it's not unreasonable to hold LBJ to a higher standard of winning given that he had that opportunity, whereas no one else ever has.
    You keep forgetting to put context into so many things you say itís ridiculous. Itís already been pointed out that Kobe wasnít the Alpha on those first three title teams (you even agree). Those Spurs teams were better then you give them credit for. You give Bosh and later Wade too much credit. Forcing your way on to a team like the Lakers or demanding a trade if help isnít received isnít ďpicking their teammatesĒ? And Lebron/Wade/Bosh took paycuts and started with no bench in order to team up.

    Jesus Christ youíre such a homer that you donít even realize how ****ing foolish you sound.
    Last edited by Saddletramp; 05-26-2020 at 11:15 AM.

  7. #5167
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Lebron is held to a higher standard remember and what about ring he donít have 5. letís not forget the competition wait did I leave out he built an artificial team with Wade. Come on Kobe is better.
    Donít forget, thereís, what, 5 teams better than the KD led Warriors team just this century according to this guy? Ludicrous.

  8. #5168
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Lebron is held to a higher standard remember and what about ring he donít have 5. letís not forget the competition wait did I leave out he built an artificial team with Wade. Come on Kobe is better.
    I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know but I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm. Hope I'm right.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  9. #5169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Lebron is held to a higher standard remember and what about ring he donít have 5. letís not forget the competition wait did I leave out he built an artificial team with Wade. Come on Kobe is better.
    Good, you finally get it lol

  10. #5170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    You keep forgetting to put context into so many things you say itís ridiculous. Itís already been pointed out that Kobe wasnít the Alpha on those first three title teams (you even agree). Those Spurs teams were better then you give them credit for. You give Bosh and later Wade too much credit. Forcing your way on to a team like the Lakers or demanding a trade if help isnít received isnít ďpicking their teammatesĒ? And Lebron/Wade/Bosh took paycuts and started with no bench in order to team up.

    Jesus Christ youíre such a homer that you donít even realize how ****ing foolish you sound.
    He was a 17 year old rookie. He didn't force his way onto the lakers and the lakers weren't even a contending team at that point. They were a middle of the pack playoff team. Those spurs teams were not better than I give them credit for. They basically came out once the lakers blew up their team (mostly because of the nixed CP3 trade). Wade was the 3rd best player in the league and Bosh was a top 10 player in the league before teaming with LBJ. Why is them taking pay cuts relevant in any way? And finding a bench isn't all that hard to do, because once you have a core you can basically bring in role players to fill a specific role. You just don't like what the implications of that are for your narrative. You also don't seem to care about winning, which makes sense why this is your position.

  11. #5171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Good, you finally get it lol
    345 pages later i finally got it🥳 all this time I though Lebron was being compared to kobe on an even playing field. Little did I know he had to work twice as hard to earn the same mark.

  12. #5172
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Taking away rings is pretty silly unless it is an extreme situation like Gary Payton on Miami. His legacy is all about his Sonics career.



    Do you give any weight to the fact that LeBron has clearly been the superior regular season player?

    Points = LeBron
    Rebounds = LeBron
    Assists = LeBron
    Steals = LeBron
    Blocks = LeBron
    MVPs = LeBron
    The points shouldn't really be on there because they're only a byproduct of Kobe coming off the bench and not playing starter minutes his first 2.5 seasons. Of their top 10 scoring seasons, Kobe wins like 8 of them. To answer your question though, no I don't give any weight to that because LBJ kind of stat pads (in my opinion at least) at the expense of playing winning basketball, at least sometimes.

  13. #5173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He was a 17 year old rookie. He didn't force his way onto the lakers and the lakers weren't even a contending team at that point. They were a middle of the pack playoff team. Those spurs teams were not better than I give them credit for. They basically came out once the lakers blew up their team (mostly because of the nixed CP3 trade). Wade was the 3rd best player in the league and Bosh was a top 10 player in the league before teaming with LBJ. Why is them taking pay cuts relevant in any way? And finding a bench isn't all that hard to do, because once you have a core you can basically bring in role players to fill a specific role. You just don't like what the implications of that are for your narrative. You also don't seem to care about winning, which makes sense why this is your position.
    So you deduct point for not being drafted to the lakers that have a long history of constructing championship teams?

  14. #5174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The points shouldn't really be on there because they're only a byproduct of Kobe coming off the bench and not playing starter minutes his first 2.5 seasons. Of their top 10 scoring seasons, Kobe wins like 8 of them. To answer your question though, no I don't give any weight to that because LBJ kind of stat pads (in my opinion at least) at the expense of playing winning basketball, at least sometimes.
    So are you saying if Lebron came in with Shaq he would of played more than Kobe since he had a more nba ready body or Lebron was already a better player than Kobe at the same age? I donít know what the point in pointing that out. Is that not we are saying Kobe was not on a lotto team out the gate?

  15. #5175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    So ďtarnishedĒ or ďno excuseĒ?
    They're not mutually exclusive. It's part of Kobe's legacy that they lost in 04. It's part of Magic's legacy that he blew it in the 84 finals. They made it up for it though. It's part of LBJ's legacy they he's had more opportunities to win during his prime than any other player in the history of the league and that he played in arguably the weakest conference in the history of the league and yet underperformed and managed to get ousted by two teams that wouldn't normally even come out of their own conference and who his teams were much more talented than. The issue here is that LBJ hasn't won enough to make up for that. I know you don't care about titles, but I'll tell you right now, he is a laker and that is the standard that the city will be holding him to because we are winners and we care about winning. We could care less how many MVP's LBJ wins as a laker or how many other meaningless accolades he accumulate while on the team. bring home the title or it was a bust. That's the standard. Like it or not, it is what it is and that is how he will be judged by the lakers.

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