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  1. #5131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    So we agree that Shaq was the main guy and Kobe was his second but Kobe gets credit for those three titles as an Alpha? And Kobe is higher in some eyes because of his ring count? But itís not the rings itís the context (so Horry/Russell donít count?). But the context shows that Kobe was second to Shaq while Lebron was never a second? But rings. But context.


    The logic keeps changing and I donít think anyone is doing anything but wasting everyoneís time.
    Lol

  2. #5132
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    And you can also hold it against Kobe that he played with possibly the most dominant player of all time. He played with someon better than him to win his titles. Lebron never had the opportunity to play with someone better than him. He never got to play with the most dominant presence of all time. And as we know, when you play with three stars there are all types of fit issues as well as touches issues that ensure one guy is not going to be used to his potential. Lebron with prime Shaq sourrounded by a Rodman, Horry, and Ron Harper would have been a much more successful than Bron, Bosh, Wade with Joel Anthony and Mario Chalmers.
    quickly ask his clueless self what he thought about kobe demanding a trade because he couldnt hack it once he forced shaq out? literally the 2nd he didnt have the super team around him kobe tried to force a trade... imagine being gifted Shaq and an insane squad and you force a team when you finally lack talent around? yet he holds it against lebron for getting help when he had his chance even though he played far better as the number 1 option on a much much much worse team,

  3. #5133
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Perhaps youíre starting to realize that talent isnít the end all be all youíve been making it out to be.
    And to be more specific, top heavy talent with no bench

  4. #5134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Kobe was the 2nd best player on his team, yes...he was NOT a #2...big difference. Kobe was a #1 who happened to be playing with the best player in the league. Stick shaq with MJ and Shaq would be the 2nd best player on the team, that doesn't make shaq a #2.
    It still means he was playing with a guy better than himself which takes the burden off himself and the ease of winning easier. It takes luster off his rings compared to his later rings where he was the best and didnít have the most dominant basketball player in history Hulking the team to a ring. Again itís like Bron winning with Michael Jordan. It just donít mean as much for his Legacy being outplayed every series for every ring by his teammate.

  5. #5135
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    It still means he was playing with a guy better than himself which takes the burden off himself and the ease of winning easier. It takes luster off his rings compared to his later rings where he was the best and didnít have the most dominant basketball player in history Hulking the team to a ring. Again itís like Bron winning with Michael Jordan. It just donít mean as much for his Legacy being outplayed every series for every ring by his teammate.
    this is the point that doesnt fit his agenda.... he isnt realizing nobody and i mean nobody came in trying to stop kobe over shaq... it was stop shaq and let kobe shoot which is why detroit upset them.... there was never a time a team came in and said lets stop someone on lebrons team except lebron

  6. #5136
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    this is the point that doesnt fit his agenda.... he isnt realizing nobody and i mean nobody came in trying to stop kobe over shaq... it was stop shaq and let kobe shoot which is why detroit upset them.... there was never a time a team came in and said lets stop someone on lebrons team except lebron
    I canít imagine Bron not being the focus of a defense. If he was able to move freely while everyone had to focus on his teammate? The only other top guy besides Kobe who had that benefit was KD when he went to GSW. It was insane how much easier it was for him. I imagine Bron in that type of situation would be an absolute joke.

  7. #5137
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Lebron has more rings as his teams best player. Kobe playing with someone so good that he was easily better than Kobe means that winning with a guy that great diminishes the win for yourself. It would be like Lebron winning a title with Michael Jordan and being outplayed by him every series. Yes both Alphas but you ainít getting the same credit for those wins.
    Fine give Kobe half the credit for them rings, that's still Kobe 3.5 LBJ 3

  8. #5138
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Fine give Kobe half the credit for them rings, that's still Kobe 3.5 LBJ 3
    more like a quarter of the credit not half

  9. #5139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    There is nothing inconsistent about it. I have been very explicit about the fact that the criteria should be different for LBJ because he's played with elite talent throughout most of his prime and for most of those years he had the most talented team. So yes, when you have that advantage you will be held to a higher standard when it comes to winning than someone like Larry Bird. You just don't care about winning for some reason.
    Lebron never played with a Top 10 guy and the GOAT coach. He played with 2 guys who never sniffed the playoffs with him, 1 guy who got to the playoffs 2 out of 7 years and 1 guy that was the hoss on a title winner but for only one year before his body started breaking down. Oh, and that first year? Thatís all he had: Wade and Bosh. Youíre making it sound like weíre arguing on behalf of Durant and not Lebron.


    And youíre not inconsistent? You just said ďThere's no excuse for a top 5 player all-time to lose to far less talented team, yes. Yes, they can make up for it if they win enough (it's not as if it's impossible to redeem yourself)Ē

    Thatís totally contradicting yourself just right there. Just anything to discredit Lebron and to lift your Kobe. And everyone sees right thru it.

  10. #5140
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    more like a quarter of the credit not half
    Yeah and LBJ gets full credit even though it was Allen hitting the series biggest shot against the Spurs and it was Irving hitting the series biggest shot against the Warriors. Maybe LBJ should get extra credit actually....

  11. #5141
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    the plot thickens lol.

  12. #5142
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    It still means he was playing with a guy better than himself which takes the burden off himself and the ease of winning easier. It takes luster off his rings compared to his later rings where he was the best and didnít have the most dominant basketball player in history Hulking the team to a ring. Again itís like Bron winning with Michael Jordan. It just donít mean as much for his Legacy being outplayed every series for every ring by his teammate.
    Once Shaq left Phill left citing coaching Kobe difficulties.

    Without Oíneal and with Bryant leading the team, they went 34-48 and the Lakers missed the playoffs for the first time in years. If someone were to tell you that your team now would have Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, and Bryant, you would probably expect them to at least make the playoffs.

    Although all three players were younger, Butler still averaged 15.5 points a game for the Lakers and was still a very good player. Odom also averaged around 15 points and ten rebounds a game and was a great player.

    However, Bryant was still maturing as a team leader and hadnít yet learned how to consistently win or make his teammates better yet. The Lakers would go 45-37 and 42-40 in the following years and lose in the first round of the playoffs both times.

    The next season after the championship an aging OíNeal missed 40 games and the Heat had an under .500 record because of it for most of the season. After O'Neal came back, Wade was seriously hurt and many predicted the Heat would fail to even to make the playoffs.

    However, lead by OíNeal, the Heat would go on to win 11 out of 14 games at one point. In that time, Miami posted a nine-game winning streak.

    Don't forget that the Heat's roster without Wade wasnít deep at all with past their prime players such as Jason Williams and Antoine walker on their team. Therefore, what OíNeal did was quite an accomplishment.

    Yes the 1B who did not need to leave LA in search of talent who also needed to be humbled and begged the franchise for more help. i wonder if Lebron had that before he was prime how many rings would he have today. Kobe should have been held to a higher standard since he got a head start and playing with every other coach nightmare.

    Does wade ring with Shaq worth more than Kobe first 3 ? This is the type of context games bigmoves and NY plays.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-26-2020 at 07:04 AM.

  13. #5143
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Kobe should have been held to a higher standard....
    But he seems to never be. If Lebron would have been second fiddle and then fail to make the playoffs or get tossed out in the first round multiple times as the Alpha before he got a Top 10, 20, 30 player then heíd be taken out of the Top 10 All Time list......NYKALLTHEWAY already has him out without that happening.

    Homers, haters, and double standard proclaimers abound.

  14. #5144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    But he seems to never be. If Lebron would have been second fiddle and then fail to make the playoffs or get tossed out in the first round multiple times as the Alpha before he got a Top 10, 20, 30 player then heíd be taken out of the Top 10 All Time list......NYKALLTHEWAY already has him out without that happening.

    Homers, haters, and double standard proclaimers abound.
    The circle context playing with words.. lol

  15. #5145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    But he seems to never be. If Lebron would have been second fiddle and then fail to make the playoffs or get tossed out in the first round multiple times as the Alpha before he got a Top 10, 20, 30 player then heíd be taken out of the Top 10 All Time list......NYKALLTHEWAY already has him out without that happening.

    Homers, haters, and double standard proclaimers abound.
    I have him out because he ain't greater than Jordan, Magic, Russell, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, West, Oscar and that's 11 already and I can still keep it going...

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