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  1. #6706
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    one thing seem to be clear however. The once who pick Lebron dont seem to hold any bias and stay true to the fact of stats. The other have some creative ways to show their reasoning. 3 is somehow 2.8, Stats are higher because of inflation, worpping of the floor, made own team, more help, etc.
    Hahaha, saying that the ones who pick LBJ don't seem to hold any bias is classic and demonstrates exactly what I've been saying. They sure as heck seem to hold a whole lot of bias as far as I'm concerned so that's definitely not clear that they don't hold any bias. What's clear is that the one's who pick LBJ seem to be very much into analytics and that is likely why they pick him. The one's who don't have made various arguments for how those statistics don't capture what is meaningful in order to assess players.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-27-2020 at 07:11 PM.

  2. #6707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I've been consistent in who I use stats for and who I don't use stats for. Comparing Kobe to Pippen or LBJ to Love or those kinds of comparisons, I've said is fine, because there is a large enough gap there that it likely won't matter (also, we don't really need stats to make those comparisons either way). But I don't use stats to compare the most elite players, because my position from the very beginning has been that a great player can usually put up great numbers, regardless of the situation they are in and so that's not the right metric to judge those kinds of players on. When I start using stats, it's usually to make a crude classification (Player A is a great player, Player B is a star, etc.).
    Except you can't say there is a large enough gap without covering inflation. You did use the stats without covering inflation and used them to make claims. You literally used the stats to make the claim Kobe was an elite player.

    Like I have said all thread when this becomes clear you start relying on semantics. Stats/data doesn't start changing and having different standards based on your opinion of if a player is a superstar or elite lol. Like I keep saying this isn't an actual analysis it is cherry picking then defending it. No one who actually understands statistics would use them in the way you are trying with such massive and obvious double standards and using stats when convenient.

    You can't make those classifications and use stats and so on without accounting for inflation. It's your own standard for using stats lol. You never did as has been repeated over and over. You just cherry pick when to use stats like I have been saying and you essentially just admitted but tried to defend.

  3. #6708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yes, I did initially think he was becoming less ball dominant. I was wrong and we'll see how that turns out in terms of winning against elite teams. Hasn't been great so far though, but we'll see how that translates when it really matters.

    The things I'm referring to that need to be accounted for are not opinions. They are actual factors that need to be accounted for when comparing players. I also never said that I was going to be doing that work, I said that it was work that needs to be done if we want to use stats to compare players. That doesn't fall on me to do that work, I have an actual job that involves investigating far more important topics than basketball lol
    bruh, like I said then when I had far more time, take all the time in the world, i still have threads i want to get back into and they're pages deeper by now. similar situation here, instead of using that time responding in depth to every circular argument (by now that's what yall seem to be doing) use that time to use ur alleged expertise. I guarantee u, ur ******** on people who do in fact know more about APBRmetrics than u.

    qualify a single opinion because they are just that. having three ball in ur hands too much is indeed a weakness, I'm with u there. its why bron will never surpass MJ in a peak debate, but kobe? man u got some work to do

  4. #6709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, I never made that argument. I'm referring to the shortened season. I agree that Kobe was a Pippen for the first title. No argument from me there at all, but the hard part of the 3-peat is on the back end and keeping it going, because teams adjust and it's difficult to overcome complacency, injuries, etc.

    My point about LBJ is simply that because he has the ball more he's going to also produce more statistically and so if we want to make a comparison, we need to account for that difference.
    The shortened season where everyone had the same chance? Lol, thatís even worse.

    And doesnít having ďthe ball moreĒ mean something? We talk about Kobeís longevity (minus the first year or so that he wasnít playing big minutes......and his Achilles injury.....and how his last few years werenít as impressive) but Lebron was the focus longer and heís still playing.


    Man, youíre just flat out wrong. Accept it and use your time more wisely than consistently being shown up.

  5. #6710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Hahaha, saying that the ones who pick LBJ don't seem to hold any bias is classic and demonstrates exactly what I've been saying. They sure as heck seem to hold a whole lot of bias as far as I'm concerned so that's definitely not clear that they don't hold any bias. What's clear is that the one's who pick LBJ seem to be very much into analytics and that is likely why they pick him. The one's who don't have made various arguments for how those statistics don't capture what is meaningful in order to assess players.
    Iím only biased as far as I think Lebron is simply the better player. The only people Iíve seen who side with Kobe are either Lakers fans or Lebron haters. Stats, heís better. Eye test, heís better. Better longer, heís better. He never played with a player like turn of the century Shaq. Kobe never played a team as good as those Warriors teams.

    You talk about asterisks.....

  6. #6711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Hahaha, saying that the ones who pick LBJ don't seem to hold any bias is classic and demonstrates exactly what I've been saying. They sure as heck seem to hold a whole lot of bias as far as I'm concerned so that's definitely not clear that they don't hold any bias. What's clear is that the one's who pick LBJ seem to be very much into analytics and that is likely why they pick him. The one's who don't have made various arguments for how those statistics don't capture what is meaningful in order to assess players.
    I did not see anyone degrading Kobe accomplishments to prop up Lebron. What i did see people doing is counter context in response to the degrade of Lebron acomplishments in context.
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-28-2020 at 07:23 AM.

  7. #6712
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Except you can't say there is a large enough gap without covering inflation. You did use the stats without covering inflation and used them to make claims. You literally used the stats to make the claim Kobe was an elite player.

    Like I have said all thread when this becomes clear you start relying on semantics. Stats/data doesn't start changing and having different standards based on your opinion of if a player is a superstar or elite lol. Like I keep saying this isn't an actual analysis it is cherry picking then defending it. No one who actually understands statistics would use them in the way you are trying with such massive and obvious double standards and using stats when convenient.

    You can't make those classifications and use stats and so on without accounting for inflation. It's your own standard for using stats lol. You never did as has been repeated over and over. You just cherry pick when to use stats like I have been saying and you essentially just admitted but tried to defend.
    Well that's obviously your position, but it goes directly against what I said...that raw stats like we've been citing are only appropriate for making those types of classifications (and no, they don't typically require adjusting for inflations for making these types of crude classifications, at least in my view). Where adjusting for inflation becomes relevant is when we want to use them to compare and assess players. At any rate, I agree with others that this isn't a worthwhile debate, because we've been repeating ourselves over and over again so no need to keep doing that.

  8. #6713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    bruh, like I said then when I had far more time, take all the time in the world, i still have threads i want to get back into and they're pages deeper by now. similar situation here, instead of using that time responding in depth to every circular argument (by now that's what yall seem to be doing) use that time to use ur alleged expertise. I guarantee u, ur ******** on people who do in fact know more about APBRmetrics than u.

    qualify a single opinion because they are just that. having three ball in ur hands too much is indeed a weakness, I'm with u there. its why bron will never surpass MJ in a peak debate, but kobe? man u got some work to do
    I obviously don't agree with everything on here lol, but I do agree that doing something like what you suggest would be much more worthwhile than repeating the same responses over and over again and so that's a fair point.

  9. #6714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    The shortened season where everyone had the same chance? Lol, thatís even worse.

    And doesnít having ďthe ball moreĒ mean something? We talk about Kobeís longevity (minus the first year or so that he wasnít playing big minutes......and his Achilles injury.....and how his last few years werenít as impressive) but Lebron was the focus longer and heís still playing.


    Man, youíre just flat out wrong. Accept it and use your time more wisely than consistently being shown up.
    Yeah, the shortened season. It's not a full season and weird things happen on shortened season. They just come with an asterisk, that's all. This isn't specific to LBJ or basketball, it applies to everyone in every sport, just like this season will for basketball and baseball. And yes, having the ball does mean something, but it also means that you're going to produce more than you otherwise would if you didn't have it as much. I'm simply saying that this needs to be adjusted for if we want to compare the statistics between any two players, especially of guards or players who play on the perimeter.

  10. #6715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Iím only biased as far as I think Lebron is simply the better player. The only people Iíve seen who side with Kobe are either Lakers fans or Lebron haters. Stats, heís better. Eye test, heís better. Better longer, heís better. He never played with a player like turn of the century Shaq. Kobe never played a team as good as those Warriors teams.

    You talk about asterisks.....
    I disagree that Kobe didn't play against better teams than the warriors (there were a few who were at the very least on a similar level), as I think there were a few (spurs, Celtics, kings, blazer) who I think might beat those warriors teams, if for no other reason than the warriors were a much different team in the half court. KD changed the dynamics on that team for sure, but then again LBJ only went up against that team twice.

    It's also not going to go in LBJ's favor citing the differences in competition here, as Kobe played in what was arguably the most competitive western conference in the history of the league and was routinely playing 2-3 title contending teams on his way to each title, whereas LBJ usually has 1 legitimate championship caliber matchup in the entire playoffs (not sure he ever faced two title contending teams in the same run and so he basically had a walk to the finals out of the east (this isn't degrading LBJ, it's simply stating what should be obvious).

    And yes, it's true that LBJ never played with someone like Shaq, but Kobe only played with him for about 3-4 years of peak shaq, wherein Kobe was also a star. Kobe never played anywhere near as many star players as LBJ and all during his prime. It would be different if Kobe was in his prime and then teamed up with shaq, but if that happened, they likely would've won a lot more titles than just 3. From 2011 till now, LBJ played with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and now AD. Kobe basically played with shaq and Gasol.

    This is also the type of bias I'm referring to (e.g., "only laker fans or LBJ haters think Kobe is better" and the "eye test"). The eye test is your eye test, there are many out there who disagree with your assessment of the eye test and no, not all of them are laker fans or LBJ haters. There is actually a long list that has been posted on this thread multiple times of players, coaches, GMs, previous greats, their peers, and in some cases mutual teammates who have picked Kobe over LBJ. I don't think these guys are laker fans or LBJ haters. Wade, for instance, is LBJ's best friend and former teammate. When asked he first strongly implied Kobe and then changed his response a while later saying that he wasn't sure who but that you couldn't go wrong with either. Bosh also picked Kobe, along with a bunch of other peers and former teammates and elite defenders who guarded both. Their position of course isn't definitive (although they have first hand knowledge of just how good these guys were/are), but it's a mischaracterization to say that only laker fans or LBJ haters pick Kobe. You pick LBJ and that's cool, I don't think that's an unreasonable position, but that doesn't mean that those who don't are biased in favor of Kobe or against LBJ.

    The asterisk I was referring to the fact that is was not a full season. This idea isn't a new and has been around before LBJ even joined the league. It's a shortened season, so teams aren't able to get into the same sync that they would during a full season and also with fewer games the season is less grueling and there are fewer chances for injury. As a result, weird things have been shown to happen when shortened seasons occur (e.g., #8 seed goes to the finals, the only time in the history of the league that has ever occurred).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-28-2020 at 11:54 AM.

  11. #6716
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    I did not see anyone degrading Kobe accomplishments to prop up Lebron. What i did see people doing is counter context in response to the degrade of Lebron acomplishments in context.
    It's not degrading to state facts. We were talking about context. We've also clearly been reading a different thread. People aren't on here straight up disrespecting LBJ. Multiple posters have come on here to be trolls about Kobe and one dude picked dumars and penny ahead of Kobe and no one in the thread said anything about it. It shows a lot. It's honestly like someone picking Pippen over LBJ and no one took any issue with that. I haven't seen anyone making those kinds of absurd arguments against LBJ. That was actually the only reason I came back early to the thread (I was going to wait to seasons end and then factor in whether LBJ was able to lead the lakers to the title). But no one spoke up...no way in a million years would anyone put up with that sort of thing if someone said that about LBJ. This place would erupt in pandemonium and the fact that I have to point this out to you, over and over again, shows just how biased you are as well.

  12. #6717
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    Since the discussion is completely repetitive at this point, I will take my leave and return at seasons end, as I initially intended to do.

  13. #6718
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well that's obviously your position, but it goes directly against what I said...that raw stats like we've been citing are only appropriate for making those types of classifications (and no, they don't typically require adjusting for inflations for making these types of crude classifications, at least in my view). Where adjusting for inflation becomes relevant is when we want to use them to compare and assess players. At any rate, I agree with others that this isn't a worthwhile debate, because we've been repeating ourselves over and over again so no need to keep doing that.
    What you said is your opinion and arbitrary semantics like I have been saying throughout. Anyone who actually understands even the most basic principles of statistics can see from the start how you are cherry picking with double standards based just on your opinion like I have been saying. You don't just pick and choose when to use stats based on convenience and inflation isn't something only relevant when you want it to be based on your narrative and so on. We keep repeating ourselves because you had been denying your double standards/cherry picking and pretending you understood statistics when you are now openly admitting everything said previously was spot on essentially.

    Thank you for finally admitting/explaining clearly how you pick and choose when to use stats based on your own opinion as I have been saying. This is just one example of how you have been going to extremes to push Kobe>Lebron narrative and is an example of just how far your bias is taking this.

  14. #6719
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  15. #6720
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    What you said is your opinion and arbitrary semantics like I have been saying throughout. Anyone who actually understands even the most basic principles of statistics can see from the start how you are cherry picking with double standards based just on your opinion like I have been saying. You don't just pick and choose when to use stats based on convenience and inflation isn't something only relevant when you want it to be based on your narrative and so on. We keep repeating ourselves because you had been denying your double standards/cherry picking and pretending you understood statistics when you are now openly admitting everything said previously was spot on essentially.

    Thank you for finally admitting/explaining clearly how you pick and choose when to use stats based on your own opinion as I have been saying. This is just one example of how you have been going to extremes to push Kobe>Lebron narrative and is an example of just how far your bias is taking this.
    It was always explained how and I've said it over and over again. Basic stats are useful for making crude classifications (e.g., Player A is a star, Player B is not), but not for assessing the differences between elite players. That's not cherry picking, that is a standard that can be applied consistently. Whether you agree with it or not is different. I can accuse you of everything you just accused me of (I do actually lol), but frankly this is petty at this point and it's petty of you to keep repeating the same points of attack after someone has said they're leaving. I will be the bigger man and walk away from this because the alternative is to continue to hijack the thread wherein we both keep saying the same things to each other.

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