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  1. #6676
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    lol, you can go to the beginning of this thread where this guy was actually claiming bron was becoming less ball dominant with the Lakers despite all the evidence contradicting him and playing more full time PG than he ever had in the past.

    there's a reason hes talking about accounting for his **** opinions yet never actually attempting to quantify a damn thing.

    hes been exposed as someone who didn't have the time to bother running any kind of statistical analysis, well its been months, let's see ur stuff cuz its still clear u don't know jack about hoopdata

  2. #6677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    lol, you can go to the beginning of this thread where this guy was actually claiming bron was becoming less ball dominant with the Lakers despite all the evidence contradicting him and playing more full time PG than he ever had in the past.

    there's a reason hes talking about accounting for his **** opinions yet never actually attempting to quantify a damn thing.

    hes been exposed as someone who didn't have the time to bother running any kind of statistical analysis, well its been months, let's see ur stuff cuz its still clear u don't know jack about hoopdata
    Yes, I did initially think he was becoming less ball dominant. I was wrong and we'll see how that turns out in terms of winning against elite teams. Hasn't been great so far though, but we'll see how that translates when it really matters.

    The things I'm referring to that need to be accounted for are not opinions. They are actual factors that need to be accounted for when comparing players. I also never said that I was going to be doing that work, I said that it was work that needs to be done if we want to use stats to compare players. That doesn't fall on me to do that work, I have an actual job that involves investigating far more important topics than basketball lol

  3. #6678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well except that we disagree that Kobe wasn't at a level of being an all-time great at that point, at least for 01 and 02 (you yourself acknowledged that your argument doesn't hold in 01, so really it boils down to 02, because I from the start said he wasn't at an all-time great level at 00).

    As to the comparison you just showed between Kobe and LBJ, first off, I will start off by re-stating that 100 per possessions does not really account for pace, as I've said many times over because it assumes a linear scaling up of statistics (which they likely would not). Having that been said, just so that we're clear here and I do not consider this a good metric to use. Nevertheless, I will engage you here on your terms, because you laid out this comparison. This isn't me being hypocritical and using statistics when they favor me, etc., etc. This is me engaging you on a metric that I do not think is reliable in anyway, but I will play the game. Now that this is clear, I'll respond:

    First off, no, those numbers are not clearly better for one player than the other. Yes, the raw numbers favor LBJ, slightly to moderately, far from a major gap though...AND this is where that time of possession is going to matter so, so much. Because the numbers are close and there isn't a major gap, adjusting for something like that would likely completely change these numbers and without that there is no way to know what they really indicate. Also, as I've noted many times over, the difference in efficiency, when we factor in free throw percentage amounts to about 1 pt. That's what your argument comes down to. LBJ was a moderately better playmaker and his efficiency led to his team having half a possession more than Kobe's team. That's not a major gap, it's almost a negligible one...and the playmaking aspect is questionable because of how much LBJ had an almost exclusively LBJ-centric offense (as our the points). Do I believe that LBJ could put up anything close to that playing in the triangle? No, not at all. This also ignores that LBJ wasn't very good defensively until about 09. There's also the major issue that about 5/8 of LBJ's games are coming against mostly historically horrible competition, whereas Kobe's are coming against a historically competitive western conference. When all of those factors are taken into account, I doubt there is much if any of advantage for LBJ

    So that's my argument engaging you on your terms, which I don't think are appropriate for making this comparison. Now, on the flip side of that I would counter with saying that because Kobe was a much more potent offensive players and was much, much more difficult to guard (for evidence of this, see what the elite defenders and defenders in general say about who was the far tougher matchup), Kobe likely warped the floor more than LBJ, which in my view is a vastly better metric to determine who is the better player and given how close the numbers are, even without the adjustments that I noted need to be made, I would argue that this difference in warping of said floor is going to outweigh whatever small to moderate advantage LBJ had on that raw comparison you showed.

    Obviously I don't have evidence for this, because we don't have any real metric to measure this, so yes, it's based on the eye test (and the reports of the guys who've guarded them). However, and this has been my point for a while, all of this is based on our opinions lol. For example, you previously argued that LBJ would do great with shaq, which you obviously don't have evidence for. Likewise, your belief that these metrics offer a meaningful way to compare players is also based on your opinion. I however, do not share this view with you and that is the reason why seeing a slight advantage numerically for LBJ when not accounting for these other factors isn't going to move the needle for me one way or the other. Now if there was a massive difference between the two (e.g., Kobe's averaging 25pts, 3 ast, 3 reb to LBJ's 40pts, 13ast, and 13 reb, sure I'm going to agree that there is a big gap there, but what you should doesn't have anything near that. It's actually a very close comparison (just based on those raw, very very flawed metrics) which can likely be accounted for by their different roles on the team, time of possession with the ball, notable difference in competition, how they actually affect and the defense (i.e., who is more difficult to guard and gameplay for), and most importantly how they warp the floor.

    There is another critical factor that I actually do think is in LBJ's favor, which is their ability to control the flow and tempo of the game. To me, this is the second biggest factor to examine in terms of who is the better player, warp being the first and both of these factors being mountains more important than any raw number we've looked at so far. In this case, I do think LBJ has the upper hand over Kobe and this makes the comparison much closer, because without it, I don't think it would be that close, because of how much more difficult it is to guard Kobe.
    Well you actually started with 5>3. Then people tried adding context including myself and once we started going you had to change and not include 2000 because it became obvious how impossible that would be to argue vs. Pippen. By 01 I said Kobe did hit another level than 2000 and was likely better than Pippen but not by a major gap making him top atg so rings count while Pippen's rings don't count at all and defenses hadn't overly adjusted to him yet by then as Shaq was best in game and so on.

    Those numbers show a very clear edge in assists/rebounds/efficiency that isn't really that close. Again you keep saying this without acknowledging Lebron is a much better playmaker than Kobe. You have done nothing to show actual inflation in any negative way not helping his team and the tracking data was covered. The reason Lebron is a better player is because he can score as much as Kobe and more efficiently over this time while also being a better playmaker and more efficient turning it over at the same time too. I don't think Kobe was elite defensively later on either though while Lebron was 2nd dpoy voting on the 12/13 end while also having a clear rebounding gap as well. As for the efficiency gap I don't think you did show it as 1 pt and I have shown how it affects series and so on before. If you look at the data it is actually 2.5 more shots per 100 and 1 less free throw and .1 less turnover for Kobe. If that free throw is coming due to a higher rate from Lebron and say leads to just an extra and 1* every 100 that means Lebron is using 2.5 less shots per and similar turnover to get similar points and create via more assists for his team while using a couple less possessions for the team via missing shots in doing so. Using less possessions to do more is a key aspect of the game. Again I don't care your opinions on what Lebron can or can't do at this point in a system and we covered him playing in many offenses and the tracking to go with it already. You can't actually break any of this down from the tracking in comparison or the offense hypotheticals but I would love it if you tried making specific arguments backing this up instead of just repeating it without doing so. I mean now you throw in this East vs. West when you could have just gone on bball reference and seen that statistically Kobe was better vs. West in his career and Lebron was very similar either way. This is why it takes more than just your opinion or claim saying inflation and whatever too, you can't actually prove anything you just use any excuse you can until it is broken down (then sometimes still use it even when you haven't proven anything and largely seem unable to explain it in depth sometimes going against what has been shared). So until you can show that this extra volume came from Lebron solely due to inflation and not his talent to create it really isn't meaningful it is just you inserting random opinions like I always point to (and they often change/move throughout the thread). I do appreciate you actually engaging but now it is time to prove some of your claims and specifically the ball domination one in comparison and what the gap is clearly inflating Lebrons game in a negative way not due to his talent.

    You say Kobe warped the floor more without any proof, I could actually agree he might be harder to guard 1v1 because you know he wants to score and have to stop his wide array of moves. Lebron makes the right play and is a little more team oriented in approach so it makes sense individually Kobe being the tougher matchup for a 1v1 guy trying to stop you but that doesn't actually shift the defense in a major way necessarily (not saying Kobe doesn't shift defenses either but his skill set is more stop him scoring keeping him shooting mid range while Lebron is don't let him to the hoop to breakdown the defense even if it means shifting people and so on then recovering). Lebron warps the floor more I would argue with his playmaking ability and him being able to get to the hoop so often leads teams needing to shift.* In fact Romeo just shared a video with Cuban talking about this and I have too on how Dallas defense played Miami specifically with the goal of defending Lebron as a team with many different looks forcing him to move it to the perimeter. Their entire goal was making the right play passing to the open guy for him then recovering on the rest of the team thinking at least Lebron won't be creating for them now. Like I keep saying if you can ever prove any of this or give clear and specifics it might be different but most of the time you argue against what is said it seems to not make tons of sense from the data (like East vs. West matters somehow) or just be opinion favoring Kobe without any real explanation in depth.

    Of course you don't have evidence because as people keep saying the only thing you can ever counter with is hypotheticals and opinions without backing. No matter what is shared now matter how long data is gone through without you being able to prove anything you will just make whatever claim you want if you think it could help. The ones that can easily be shown statistically are disproven time and time again and you run with whatever opinion we won't be able to clearly show in favor of Kobe as I have continually pointed out (like randomly throwing in east v west here, having gone through the data with no clear proof of Lebron over holding instead of just a regular amount for a guy creating at that level for the team as best in game, or the warped floor argument as well without anything to back it). As I keep saying over and over it will always come down to your opinion which changes and often goes against data/you can't actually provide anything to back it up. All throughout I have been able to use the stats/data/analysis/articles and so on to continually back what I say as more than just my opinion. Lebron is clearly the better playmaker and rebounder and these stats help show it while being able to score at the same rate more efficiently (even if you don't see the efficiency as huge it is still an edge added onto his playmaking/rebounding still as lead creator for the team while scoring at those levels). As I noted earlier the gap between prime Pippen and young Kobe wasn't much different (he had higher scoring but speaking of inflation due to shooting less) and you claim one of them is atg counting rings and the other doesn't have his count. If we are going to acknowledge one is scoring more due to talent we should do the same with playmaking, or we can just say inflated without real proof at each other I guess.
    This last point only further makes your holding the ball argument make even less sense. If he is controlling the tempo at times he will be holding it longer inflating his time with ball stats when running out the clock and so on but you keep using him not being top 30 as meaningful now we account for this too? Lebron definitely controls tempo and is what I keep getting at with his ability to create for the team as a whole at a clearly higher level (assists just help show statistically but are obvious watching). You are the one calling this inflation for Lebron over and over it seems while also now trying to acknowledge I have been right it is actually a big asset?*
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-27-2020 at 01:24 PM.

  4. #6679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    lol, you can go to the beginning of this thread where this guy was actually claiming bron was becoming less ball dominant with the Lakers despite all the evidence contradicting him and playing more full time PG than he ever had in the past.

    there's a reason hes talking about accounting for his **** opinions yet never actually attempting to quantify a damn thing.

    hes been exposed as someone who didn't have the time to bother running any kind of statistical analysis, well its been months, let's see ur stuff cuz its still clear u don't know jack about hoopdata
    Ya as I keep noting he is all over the place all thread.

    He always backs things with just opinion and that opinion is ever changing depending on the argument being made. Standards on using stats and needing to back up your claims and so on only apply one way. He never backs things up in the way he demands others do so.

    We have been asking all thread for him to use data/stats or anything really outside "my opinion" to back up his claims but as you can see above it never works. Time and time again others will actually bring in stats/data and articles analyzing much of this and countering what he is saying but he will not respond in the same way ever. He will cherry pick to prop up Kloves inflated stats while complaining about Lebron inflating without explanation on it being negative in any way or say East/West or just make claims like you get at then have to change his stance when proven wrong (5>3 turned into all of this as goal posts move slowly).
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-27-2020 at 01:27 PM.

  5. #6680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    I will definitely read those articles n depth and get back to you. Going to Kern river tomorrow, so might be a few days before I reply.
    Sounds good, no rush I will check in and respond when I see you have. I know I added a decent amount of info with the articles/data/video there to look over. Hope you have a good trip!

  6. #6681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    LBJ has never played pg. He is a point-forward and does bring the ball up more than a non-pg does, but that doesn't explain him usually being among the league leaders in this category. Inflated stats basically mean that because he has the ball a lot, he has more opportunities to produce. It's the same principle as volume scoring. If you always give one player the ball, they're going to produce at a higher rate than if they get the ball less. When comparing players, this has to be accounted for.
    No he serves as the team play maker and organize the offense. He brings the ball up court from time to time Same as Kobe did for the Lakers.

  7. #6682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yep, those are excellent examples of what a great player can do when they're giving the opportunity to inflate their numbers like LBJ has.
    So why is Lebron lower on the usage rate list giving he had such an opportunity? Should he not be sitting on top the list and maybe at 37ppg at least in 1 season?

    Why is kobe on the list two seasons way before Lebron gets in the picture?

    Why is the top 3 Westbrook, Harden, Kobe? These are two players style of play you dont like 1 on 1 or 1 on 3, 3 point shot, pull up or take it to the basket?

    If MJ is on the list is his Number also inflated to that of Kobe? Kobe was higher on the list and avg 35ppg to mj 37ppg dispite being lower on the list?

    If MJ is on the list many seasons before Lebron is MJ stats inflated to that of Lebron?

    Why is it Kobe and MJ seasons they are high on the list is the exact same seasons they avg 35ppg 37ppg. Were they dominating the ball and taking a bulk of shots which inflated their numbers which up their career avg or is it a indicator of their greatness to score the ball taking on the entire team?

    After all MJ never beat Larry Bird and Bird egged Mj. Is MJ stats inflated to that of Bird since he is way down to 234? Since Larry did not dominate the ball and did not shoot in traffic or in excess is he better than
    MJ?

    Did MJ made 1 vs 1 style transfer to i wana be like Mike. Ai, Kobe, Tmac, westbrook, Carter, etc? Because today it seem 1 vs 1 just started with Lebron dominating the ball.

    Help me i am trying to understand...
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-27-2020 at 03:12 PM.

  8. #6683
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Well you actually started with 5>3. Then people tried adding context including myself and once we started going you had to change and not include 2000 because it became obvious how impossible that would be to argue vs. Pippen. By 01 I said Kobe did hit another level than 2000 and was likely better than Pippen but not by a major gap making him top atg so rings count while Pippen's rings don't count at all and defenses hadn't overly adjusted to him yet by then as Shaq was best in game and so on.

    Those numbers show a very clear edge in assists/rebounds/efficiency that isn't really that close. Again you keep saying this without acknowledging Lebron is a much better playmaker than Kobe. You have done nothing to show actual inflation in any negative way not helping his team and the tracking data was covered. The reason Lebron is a better player is because he can score as much as Kobe and more efficiently over this time while also being a better playmaker and more efficient turning it over at the same time too. I don't think Kobe was elite defensively later on either though while Lebron was 2nd dpoy voting on the 12/13 end while also having a clear rebounding gap as well. As for the efficiency gap I don't think you did show it as 1 pt and I have shown how it affects series and so on before. If you look at the data it is actually 2.5 more shots per 100 and 1 less free throw and .1 less turnover for Kobe. If that free throw is coming due to a higher rate from Lebron and say leads to just an extra and 1* every 100 that means Lebron is using 2.5 less shots per and similar turnover to get similar points and create via more assists for his team while using a couple less possessions for the team via missing shots in doing so. Using less possessions to do more is a key aspect of the game. Again I don't care your opinions on what Lebron can or can't do at this point in a system and we covered him playing in many offenses and the tracking to go with it already. You can't actually break any of this down from the tracking in comparison or the offense hypotheticals but I would love it if you tried making specific arguments backing this up instead of just repeating it without doing so. I mean now you throw in this East vs. West when you could have just gone on bball reference and seen that statistically Kobe was better vs. West in his career and Lebron was very similar either way. This is why it takes more than just your opinion or claim saying inflation and whatever too, you can't actually prove anything you just use any excuse you can until it is broken down (then sometimes still use it even when you haven't proven anything and largely seem unable to explain it in depth sometimes going against what has been shared). So until you can show that this extra volume came from Lebron solely due to inflation and not his talent to create it really isn't meaningful it is just you inserting random opinions like I always point to (and they often change/move throughout the thread). I do appreciate you actually engaging but now it is time to prove some of your claims and specifically the ball domination one in comparison and what the gap is clearly inflating Lebrons game in a negative way not due to his talent.

    You say Kobe warped the floor more without any proof, I could actually agree he might be harder to guard 1v1 because you know he wants to score and have to stop his wide array of moves. Lebron makes the right play and is a little more team oriented in approach so it makes sense individually Kobe being the tougher matchup for a 1v1 guy trying to stop you but that doesn't actually shift the defense in a major way necessarily (not saying Kobe doesn't shift defenses either but his skill set is more stop him scoring keeping him shooting mid range while Lebron is don't let him to the hoop to breakdown the defense even if it means shifting people and so on then recovering). Lebron warps the floor more I would argue with his playmaking ability and him being able to get to the hoop so often leads teams needing to shift.* In fact Romeo just shared a video with Cuban talking about this and I have too on how Dallas defense played Miami specifically with the goal of defending Lebron as a team with many different looks forcing him to move it to the perimeter. Their entire goal was making the right play passing to the open guy for him then recovering on the rest of the team thinking at least Lebron won't be creating for them now. Like I keep saying if you can ever prove any of this or give clear and specifics it might be different but most of the time you argue against what is said it seems to not make tons of sense from the data (like East vs. West matters somehow) or just be opinion favoring Kobe without any real explanation in depth.

    Of course you don't have evidence because as people keep saying the only thing you can ever counter with is hypotheticals and opinions without backing. No matter what is shared now matter how long data is gone through without you being able to prove anything you will just make whatever claim you want if you think it could help. The ones that can easily be shown statistically are disproven time and time again and you run with whatever opinion we won't be able to clearly show in favor of Kobe as I have continually pointed out (like randomly throwing in east v west here, having gone through the data with no clear proof of Lebron over holding instead of just a regular amount for a guy creating at that level for the team as best in game, or the warped floor argument as well without anything to back it). As I keep saying over and over it will always come down to your opinion which changes and often goes against data/you can't actually provide anything to back it up. All throughout I have been able to use the stats/data/analysis/articles and so on to continually back what I say as more than just my opinion. Lebron is clearly the better playmaker and rebounder and these stats help show it while being able to score at the same rate more efficiently (even if you don't see the efficiency as huge it is still an edge added onto his playmaking/rebounding still as lead creator for the team while scoring at those levels). As I noted earlier the gap between prime Pippen and young Kobe wasn't much different (he had higher scoring but speaking of inflation due to shooting less) and you claim one of them is atg counting rings and the other doesn't have his count. If we are going to acknowledge one is scoring more due to talent we should do the same with playmaking, or we can just say inflated without real proof at each other I guess.
    This last point only further makes your holding the ball argument make even less sense. If he is controlling the tempo at times he will be holding it longer inflating his time with ball stats when running out the clock and so on but you keep using him not being top 30 as meaningful now we account for this too? Lebron definitely controls tempo and is what I keep getting at with his ability to create for the team as a whole at a clearly higher level (assists just help show statistically but are obvious watching). You are the one calling this inflation for Lebron over and over it seems while also now trying to acknowledge I have been right it is actually a big asset?*
    I've said from the very start that the 2000 title was more similar to Pippen's title. However, when we factor in context, we also have to factor in that Kobe won a 3-peat which carries a ton more weight than simply winning 3 titles. One of LBJ's title also come with an asterisk so he has more like 2.8 titles or so, but none of these points are relevant to the discussion at hand, especially because we've been over this many times over and we're not going to see eye to eye on this.

    You keep saying that I'm saying that holding the ball is a negative for LBJ, it is to some extent, but that's not why I'm saying that we need to account for it. Im saying that we need to account for it if we want to compare statistics between two guys. It's no different than you saying we need to account for someone like love being featured in the offense. Also, controlling the tempo doesn't necessarily mean you have to hold the ball, it involves slowing it down sometimes, speeding it up at other times. It involves being a floor general and shifting the pace of the game at the right times in a way that benefits your team given the situation. I agree that LBJ being able to play this role is a big asset, but I'm simply saying that we need to account for having the ball more as a factor that is going to also inflate hit numbers. If Kobe is a volume scorer (although isn't really too far off on this either), LBJ is a volume passer. So sure, maybe kobe has slightly inflated scoring relative to LBJ, but LBJ is going to have inflated assists relative to Kobe. The efficiency argument also doesn't translate to much, when everything is factored in (it's about half a possession difference). LBJ does have the upper hand in rebounding, I agree with that.

  9. #6684
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    So why is Lebron lower on the usage rate list giving he had such an opportunity? Should he not be sitting on top the list and maybe at 37ppg at least in 1 season?

    Why is kobe on the list two seasons way before Lebron gets in the picture?

    Why is the top 3 Westbrook, Harden, Kobe? These are two players style of play you dont like 1 on 1 or 1 on 3, 3 point shot, pull up or take it to the basket?

    If MJ is on the list is his Number also inflated to that of Kobe? Kobe was higher on the list and avg 35ppg to mj 37ppg dispite being lower on the list?

    If MJ is on the list many seasons before Lebron is MJ stats inflated to that of Lebron?

    Why is it Kobe and MJ seasons they are high on the list is the exact same seasons they avg 35ppg 37ppg. Were they dominating the ball and taking a bulk of shots which inflated their numbers which up their career avg or is it a indicator of their greatness to score the ball taking on the entire team?

    After all MJ never beat Larry Bird and Bird egged Mj. Is MJ stats inflated to that of Bird since he is way down to 234? Since Larry did not dominate the ball and did not shoot in traffic or in excess is he better than
    MJ?

    Did MJ made 1 vs 1 style transfer to i wana be like Mike. Ai, Kobe, Tmac, westbrook, Carter, etc? Because today it seem 1 vs 1 just started with Lebron dominating the ball.

    Help me i am trying to understand...
    Already showed how usage doesn't translate to being the same thing. KL has a higher usage rate than LBJ this season, but LBJ spends much more time with the ball in his hands.

  10. #6685
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I've said from the very start that the 2000 title was more similar to Pippen's title. However, when we factor in context, we also have to factor in that Kobe won a 3-peat which carries a ton more weight than simply winning 3 titles. One of LBJ's title also come with an asterisk so he has more like 2.8 titles or so, but none of these points are relevant to the discussion at hand, especially because we've been over this many times over and we're not going to see eye to eye on this.

    You keep saying that I'm saying that holding the ball is a negative for LBJ, it is to some extent, but that's not why I'm saying that we need to account for it. Im saying that we need to account for it if we want to compare statistics between two guys. It's no different than you saying we need to account for someone like love being featured in the offense. Also, controlling the tempo doesn't necessarily mean you have to hold the ball, it involves slowing it down sometimes, speeding it up at other times. It involves being a floor general and shifting the pace of the game at the right times in a way that benefits your team given the situation. I agree that LBJ being able to play this role is a big asset, but I'm simply saying that we need to account for having the ball more as a factor that is going to also inflate hit numbers. If Kobe is a volume scorer (although isn't really too far off on this either), LBJ is a volume passer. So sure, maybe kobe has slightly inflated scoring relative to LBJ, but LBJ is going to have inflated assists relative to Kobe. The efficiency argument also doesn't translate to much, when everything is factored in (it's about half a possession difference). LBJ does have the upper hand in rebounding, I agree with that.
    You is something else 2.8 titles Does that mean Shaq have 5.5 and Kobe 3.5
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-27-2020 at 03:32 PM.

  11. #6686
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    A volume passer. How about he just pass more vs taking the shot? one shot the ball when faced certain defense the other pass out of it. Now if you said that about Lonzo last season then i can say ok. Lebron dont over pass sorry try again
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-27-2020 at 03:23 PM.

  12. #6687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I've said from the very start that the 2000 title was more similar to Pippen's title. However, when we factor in context, we also have to factor in that Kobe won a 3-peat which carries a ton more weight than simply winning 3 titles. One of LBJ's title also come with an asterisk so he has more like 2.8 titles or so, but none of these points are relevant to the discussion at hand, especially because we've been over this many times over and we're not going to see eye to eye on this.

    You keep saying that I'm saying that holding the ball is a negative for LBJ, it is to some extent, but that's not why I'm saying that we need to account for it. Im saying that we need to account for it if we want to compare statistics between two guys. It's no different than you saying we need to account for someone like love being featured in the offense. Also, controlling the tempo doesn't necessarily mean you have to hold the ball, it involves slowing it down sometimes, speeding it up at other times. It involves being a floor general and shifting the pace of the game at the right times in a way that benefits your team given the situation. I agree that LBJ being able to play this role is a big asset, but I'm simply saying that we need to account for having the ball more as a factor that is going to also inflate hit numbers. If Kobe is a volume scorer (although isn't really too far off on this either), LBJ is a volume passer. So sure, maybe kobe has slightly inflated scoring relative to LBJ, but LBJ is going to have inflated assists relative to Kobe. The efficiency argument also doesn't translate to much, when everything is factored in (it's about half a possession difference). LBJ does have the upper hand in rebounding, I agree with that.
    Lol now you are adding to Kobe's rings and taking away with asterisks to Lebron's rings. This is perfect for what I keeo saying in that it will always boil down to your opinion and just favoring Kobe and downgrading Lebron with little explanation (3-peat and cause it's not relevant lol). Of course we won't see eye to eye when I can break it down consistently with stats/data/articles within my analysis regularly and this is the type of response it gets. As me, Valade, Chronz just now (others at times as well reading back) and so on have repeatedly pointed out you flip flop, have complete double standards around using stats and data, never really counter with anything of substance just opinions without any proof or even attempt at really explaining often, and are constantly moving goal posts or just having to admit being wrong after quoting it multiple times finally. Everyone can have opinions but the level to which you can back them up matters and that is often why people think others are insanely biased not just the opinion but the crazy arguments/flip flopping/double standards and so on needed to keep pushing a single type of narrative.

    The key is you have used stats before while saying that the inflation is because that player is better. Now when it is Lebron you just say we can't compare the stats. I agree I have pointed out inflation for Love and young Kobe but when I have you say it doesn't matter and actually shows they are better with more ability due to it and it meant Pippen or Gasol can't handle types stuff. We need to account for everything and if the standard is you need to 100% do so to use stats and data we would never use any. You have been when convenient while creating other standards when people try doing the same. I keep pointing this out and quoting you and so on, it's a massive issue. You can't break down inflation compared to everyone from different eras and so on ever and as stated before when Kobe had inflation you said it was showing him as better/more talented but when Lebron does it due to being more talented as a playmaker you are trying to somehow hold it against him and not take that same approach of his inflation (on better efficiency too) is somehow potentially a negative. You aren't saying it's a negative as I noted you keep saying it like what if what if because all you can counter with is maybe's/hypothetical that don't actually explain anything but are just used to not let others use data in the same way you have tried to previously because it doesn't fit your narrative.

    I broke that all down more and this is the type of response I get lol. Thank you for proving my point.

  13. #6688
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    Is Lebronís asterisk title because of the Draymond suspension? Keeping up with that dope take? Thereís plenty of incidents that affect the conclusion but donít act like Green missed Game 7 or that the suspension wasnít deserved. You keep going back to the same dumb points that have been addressed 100 pages ago. Good on gopher for keeping up with your lame ďanalysisĒ but he seems to be smacking you about pretty easily.

    And Kobe gets the three peat credit but he was a Pippen for the first one so how does that mean itís worth more?

    And Lebron ďhas never played pg. He is a point forward....Ē Regardless of the letters by his name or who he starts off guarding, heís been a de facto pg. Thatís sorta the point of calling someone a POINT FORWARD. Of course his usage will be way higher.
    Last edited by Saddletramp; 06-27-2020 at 03:33 PM.

  14. #6689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Is Lebronís asterisk title because of the Draymond suspension? Keeping up with that dope take? Thereís plenty of incidents that affect the conclusion but donít act like Green missed Game 7 or that the suspension wasnít deserved. You keep going back to the same dumb points that have been addressed 100 pages ago. Good on gopher for keeping up with your lame ďanalysisĒ but he seems to be smacking you about pretty easily.

    And Kobe gets the three peat credit but he was a Pippen for the first one so how does that mean itís worth more?

    And Lebron ďhas never played pg. He is a point forward....Ē Regardless of the letters by his name or who he starts off guarding, heís been a de facto pg. Thatís sorta the point of calling someone a POINT FORWARD. Of course his usage will be way higher.
    Mike Bibby nose just picked up a title. lol

  15. #6690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Already showed how usage doesn't translate to being the same thing. KL has a higher usage rate than LBJ this season, but LBJ spends much more time with the ball in his hands.
    Its does not measure how long you have the ball it amounts for number of possessions a player utilizes while on the court. indicator of how big of a role a particular player has in the team's offense.
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-27-2020 at 03:56 PM.

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