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  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I think the LeBron ball argument makes sense for his inflated stats across the board. Same for Harden in recent years. If everyone else just stands around to give you an outlet while you go to work your #s will be inflated.
    I don't buy the argument in regards to Kobe. It's not like Kobe wasn't dominating the ball. Kobe had the highest USG% of all-time (I believe) before Westy/Harden/etc. Dude hogged the ball. Dude dribbled the air out of the ball. Dude took every shot imaginable. I buy your argument against LeBron, I believe he did those things. The argument I don't buy is that Kobe didn't.

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Not really, because LBJ played an era where the 3 became a much bigger part of the game than it was during Kobe's career (kobe has more attempted 3's by the way, its the average per game which LBJ has a higher proportion of). Also, teams are likely going to give LBJ more space to shoot 3s than kobe (i.e., LBJ will have better looks at 3s and thus should be more likely to take them).
    That has nothing to do with heaves, I was wrong on that part tho. As for giving him more space, well yeah, thats the advantage of being so superior athletically, if Kobe was 6"9 270 Im sure more players would have feared giving him a lane to the highest% shots and he could have utilized those easier looks too. Unfortunately he couldn't sustain a playing weight above of 230 without his knees aching, coincidentally that was the season Kobe finally lived up to the hype you place on him being the 2nd best player in the league and even then he was likely just 4th or 5th best. Kobe chose longevity over brute strength, Bron chose both.

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Tell that to BigMoves, he's the one claiming MJ wasn't considered or the best player in the league until 91 when he won a title.
    He wasn't, it was a highly debated issue between MJ and Magic at the time. There is an entire reddit devoted to this discussion. Overall consensus is that it was around the late 80s-early 90s, which is more or less what I said.

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I don't buy the argument in regards to Kobe. It's not like Kobe wasn't dominating the ball. Kobe had the highest USG% of all-time (I believe) before Westy/Harden/etc. Dude hogged the ball. Dude dribbled the air out of the ball. Dude took every shot imaginable. I buy your argument against LeBron, I believe he did those things. The argument I don't buy is that Kobe didn't.
    Besides nobody does it the way Harden does, Bron has played alongside more productive players and in far more cramped environments. And Bron could have played his style alongside Shaq, he would have to defer more but it would be an enhanced version of what we saw Wade get out of an old Shaq. Its not hard to play with Shaq, its definitely harder without him.

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I don't buy the argument in regards to Kobe. It's not like Kobe wasn't dominating the ball. Kobe had the highest USG% of all-time (I believe) before Westy/Harden/etc. Dude hogged the ball. Dude dribbled the air out of the ball. Dude took every shot imaginable. I buy your argument against LeBron, I believe he did those things. The argument I don't buy is that Kobe didn't.
    He played in the triangle and alongside shaq for most of his athletic prime. He dominated the ball as well, but not to the extent that LBJ did, because Kobe had a lot of factors keeping him from doing that (shaq and Phil), whereas LBJ did not have those factors. Kobe would break from the system often, but LBJ had no system to break from because ball domination was the system for him.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I don't buy the argument in regards to Kobe. It's not like Kobe wasn't dominating the ball. Kobe had the highest USG% of all-time (I believe) before Westy/Harden/etc. Dude hogged the ball. Dude dribbled the air out of the ball. Dude took every shot imaginable. I buy your argument against LeBron, I believe he did those things. The argument I don't buy is that Kobe didn't.
    Kobe played more off the ball, that much is for sure considering the tenents of the triangle. Kobe had 1 year where he tried to do the top of the key attack in PnR, he had one of his worst years playing that style. I dont get why we cant just enjoy different styles, context matters but there is no single way to play this game.

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I don't buy the argument in regards to Kobe. It's not like Kobe wasn't dominating the ball. Kobe had the highest USG% of all-time (I believe) before Westy/Harden/etc. Dude hogged the ball. Dude dribbled the air out of the ball. Dude took every shot imaginable. I buy your argument against LeBron, I believe he did those things. The argument I don't buy is that Kobe didn't.
    Its not just usage though. It how the team is constructed and used. A couple years ago the Cavs completely punted defense and played K Love at center so the lane would be open. They then did nothing but work to get the most favorable switch they could onto LeBron and then let him go to work with a bunch of shooters standing still at the 3 point line to give Bron pitch options. Kobe was a ball hog and made team play difficult but everything wasn't constructed to allow them to do whatever he wanted. Maybe if he had the pull/boldness to demanded it like LeBron it would have been that way IDK but I do think there is some difference
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  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It wasn't really Robin because they were both superstar. Kobe was widely recognized as the second best player in the league for 2 of the 3 so he was better than everyone not named Shaq. It's different when both players are elite superstar. Kobe's situation almost directly in line with that of Magic Johnson's where Magic was the second best player on the team for the first few titles, but he was still an elite superstar. Pippen never really reached that level of play. So I disagree that this takes away from Kobe's first 3 titles. I do agree that Kobe has had far better coaching and so that also needs to be factored into the context when comparing their titles.
    No he wasnít regarded as 2nd best. In fact iverson was ahead of him, Duncan, as well. He was prob a top 10 player for 2 of them but having a player better than you takes away for sure, so in that context there not as good. Pippen was a top 5 player for a few rings as well. Kobe was Pippen for 3 Rings.

  9. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Its not just usage though. It how the team is constructed and used. A couple years ago the Cavs completely punted defense and played K Love at center so the lane would be open. They then did nothing but work to get the most favorable switch they could onto LeBron and then let him go to work with a bunch of shooters standing still at the 3 point line to give Bron pitch options. Kobe was a ball hog and made team play difficult but everything wasn't constructed to allow them to do whatever he wanted. Maybe if he had the pull/boldness to demanded it like LeBron it would have been that way IDK but I do think there is some difference
    Yep, this nails it right on the head.

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    No he wasnít regarded as 2nd best. In fact iverson was ahead of him, Duncan, as well. He was prob a top 10 player for 2 of them but having a player better than you takes away for sure, so in that context there not as good. Pippen was a top 5 player for a few rings as well. Kobe was Pippen for 3 Rings.

    no he wasn't
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  11. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    No he wasnít regarded as 2nd best. In fact iverson was ahead of him, Duncan, as well. He was prob a top 10 player for 2 of them but having a player better than you takes away for sure, so in that context there not as good. Pippen was a top 5 player for a few rings as well. Kobe was Pippen for 3 Rings.
    Nah completely disagree here. That argument can be made for his first title with shaq...the last 2 kobe was widely recognized as the 2nd best player. That was the explanation as to why the team was so dominant. The idea was that the other guys weren't all that good, but they had the two best players in the league. Pippen never reached the level that Kobe did in 2001, nor did Duncan or AI for that matter, especially when considering that that production was coming from being the second option (in this regard, the context between kobe and Pippen can be directly compared because both were the 2nd option in the triangle and with Phil as the coach and there are no seasons in which Pippen is close).

    This is clearly somewhat subjective, but I consider being a superstar (even if you are the 2nd best player on the team) to carry more weight if you win a title than in cases where you form a super team to win a title and you are the best player on that team.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-21-2019 at 02:19 PM.

  12. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Nope, because kobe takes tougher shots. Not that hard to figure that one out.
    Do to Kobeís inability to get good looks when compared to Bron, that is why Bron is a better scorer than Kobe, just as Shaq is a better scorer than Dream

  13. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Do to Kobeís inability to get good looks when compared to Bron, that is why Bron is a better scorer than Kobe, just as Shaq is a better scorer than Dream
    If you mean more efficient then yes, but not otherwise. Looking at their top 10 seasons of scoring output, kobe wins 8 out of the 10 and many of those were with kobe playing as the second option and almost all of them are coming from playing in the triangle. That's over a decade of basketball and LBJ putting up inflated scoring numbers because of the style of play and how the system has been geared to letting him do whatever he wants. I agree that LBJ is better at getting better looks, but kobe can just score in so many different ways that I don't think LBJ's ability to get those looks offsets this...and it bears out when we look at their top decade of scoring.

  14. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He played in the triangle and alongside shaq for most of his athletic prime. He dominated the ball as well, but not to the extent that LBJ did, because Kobe had a lot of factors keeping him from doing that (shaq and Phil), whereas LBJ did not have those factors. Kobe would break from the system often, but LBJ had no system to break from because ball domination was the system for him.
    Well the moment Shaq left Kobe certainly dominated the ball to the extent LeBron did.

  15. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Its not just usage though. It how the team is constructed and used. A couple years ago the Cavs completely punted defense and played K Love at center so the lane would be open. They then did nothing but work to get the most favorable switch they could onto LeBron and then let him go to work with a bunch of shooters standing still at the 3 point line to give Bron pitch options. Kobe was a ball hog and made team play difficult but everything wasn't constructed to allow them to do whatever he wanted. Maybe if he had the pull/boldness to demanded it like LeBron it would have been that way IDK but I do think there is some difference
    Kobe never needed to demand it, he just did it. When Shaq left the team was absolutely constructed (or their lack of construction facilitated) to allow him to do whatever he wanted.

    As for the difference, sure there's some difference but it's not as big as the difference between how much better LeBron was than Kobe, even playing his LeBron ball.

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