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  1. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I did reply to that one. LBJ has a career of playing LBJ system b-ball kobe has maybe 3 years of it so of course his numbers are going to be far more inflated. LBJ's titles carry a lot less weight because he title hopped. That is the gist of the reply.
    see one of those big move clauses. he tittle hop and Kobe did not so heís the better player, when Kobe was not with phil he was out of control. What if lebron had Phil and the Lakers?

  2. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    see one of those big move clauses. he tittle hop and Kobe did not so heís the better player, when Kobe was not with phil he was out of control. What if lebron had Phil and the Lakers?
    he would've probably averaged something like 20-22 pts a game, 6 assists, and 7 rebounds...would have won a lot more titles, and probably wouldn't be in the conversation for being the GOAT. More team glory, less individual glory. That's what would have likely happened.

  3. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    he would've probably averaged something like 20-22 pts a game, 6 assists, and 7 rebounds...would have won a lot more titles, and probably wouldn't be in the conversation for being the GOAT. More team glory, less individual glory. That's what would have likely happened.
    so now he would not have been able to average 27ppg and be in goat debate not base on his abilities but his stats?

  4. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    so now he would not have been able to average 27ppg and be in goat debate not base on his abilities but his stats?
    Absolutely not, he would not average 27 pts a game playing alongside shaq or in the triangle. Just like James Harden has no business averaging anywhere near 30 pts a game. It happens because they dominate the ball to a level that is arguably detrimental to the team. LBJ doesn't have the offensive skill to put up super high-end scoring numbers if he doesn't dominate the ball. He would still be a good scorer, but not an elite one.

  5. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Absolutely not, he would not average 27 pts a game playing alongside shaq or in the triangle. Just like James Harden has no business averaging anywhere near 30 pts a game. It happens because they dominate the ball to a level that is arguably detrimental to the team. LBJ doesn't have the offensive skill to put up super high-end scoring numbers if he doesn't dominate the ball. He would still be a good scorer, but not an elite one.
    and Kobe did? Dude your bias is off the charts

  6. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First, are you now knocking LeBron for not taking bad % shots? But to the argument itself: you already admitted LeBron is a better passer and has superior vision, so even if his assist numbers are inflated they'd still be higher than Kobe's no? And his points may be inflated, but he still took less shots than Kobe, meaning his scoring wasn't as inflated as Kobe's. And in regards to the efficiency, you even admitted that if you adjusted for all the half court shots, etc. Kobe took, it would be closer but LeBron would still be more efficient.

    So your inflated stats argument boils down to: LeBron's efficiency and assists are inflated though if they weren't inflated they'd still be superior to Kobe's #'s in those areas? OK, not much of an argument...

    As for the context we have to take into account, how come you are only taking into account context when it hurts LeBron? How about the context of Kobe being the 2nd best player on those 3-peat teams than LeBron being undisputed #1 on his back to backs? Shaq won all 3 Finals MVPs, won the only MVP between them in that span and finished higher in MVP voting every year. LeBron being #1 on back to backs is more impressive than Kobe being #2 for a 3-peat. You even used this argument in favor of Bosh vs Pau by saying Bosh put up his numbers as a number 3 to Pau's number 2 stats. So when it favors Kobe, use the context, when it favors LeBron, ignore it.

    As for your argument Kobe never made it his system, clearly you weren't watching or paying attention to the NBA from 2005-2008 as that was the exact knock on Kobe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I did reply to that one. LBJ has a career of playing LBJ system b-ball kobe has maybe 3 years of it so of course his numbers are going to be far more inflated. LBJ's titles carry a lot less weight because he title hopped. That is the gist of the reply.

    Also, why ignore what their peers have to say?? There is massive list of these guys picking kobe. People with first hand knowledge. I get that former players don't always have the best takes, but the players on the court usually know who is having the greatest impact on the game. The opinion of your peers, in any field really, carries far more weight than what outsiders think.
    Lol here is the thing you only want to take context when it fits your story. Context is context. You cant change what Lebron did just to make Kobe look better. You are changing the narrative to fit your story and your version of context. You dont want to talk about stats. You dont want to talk about facts. You want to change the story and the numbers to make it fit what you are saying.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  7. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    and Kobe did? Dude your bias is off the charts
    Umm, kobe has been mentioned by many as being the most skilled player in NBA history (above mj). Kobe was an incredibly skilled offensive player. He wasn't the best player ever, but skill-wise, he is second to none. LBJ, while still having decent skill, has never been elite in terms of his skillset. There are various players who have far more offensive skill that are currently in the league and many others who have come before him. Your inability to assess basketball is off the charts...

  8. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    Lol here is the thing you only want to take context when it fits your story. Context is context. You cant change what Lebron did just to make Kobe look better. You are changing the narrative to fit your story and your version of context. You dont want to talk about stats. You dont want to talk about facts. You want to change the story and the numbers to make it fit what you are saying.
    What exactly am I not including? Kobe has 5 titles, was an elite player for all 5, and is regarded by their common peers as the better player. That is the evidence in favor of kobe. LBJ has 3 titles, despite title hopping, having far more star teammates and playing in a far weaker conference. The evidence in favor of LBJ is that he puts up better numbers.

    That is essentially what this debate comes down to: do you trust the titles and the opinion of their peers more than the analytics. I've been saying that advanced analytics are super unreliable (have shown various concrete examples to demonstrate this) and that a big reason LBJ's numbers are better is because of the context I've pointed out (LBJ dominates the ball far more and puts up inflated numbers as a result, a strategy that I've argued is not conducive to winning). Given all of those contextual factors, I'm going with the titles and the opinion of their peers in this case.

  9. #474
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    Lol itís situational for you on everything. So is Duncan better than Kobe? He did not title hop and won with rookies they groomed and developed? One from the second round. Do he gain points that English was not their first language? Or it have another clause he did not score 27ppg? Or is it that Kobe team rebuild was more drastic?

  10. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Umm, kobe has been mentioned by many as being the most skilled player in NBA history (above mj). Kobe was an incredibly skilled offensive player. He wasn't the best player ever, but skill-wise, he is second to none. LBJ, while still having decent skill, has never been elite in terms of his skillset. There are various players who have far more offensive skill that are currently in the league and many others who have come before him. Your inability to assess basketball is off the charts...
    Brons speed, power, size, athleticism transend skill. Just as Shaq did. Saying Bron doesnít have the skill to score 27 points a game is ridiculous when you are so much bigger and stronger than everyone else.

  11. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Brons speed, power, size, athleticism transend skill. Just as Shaq did. Saying Bron doesnít have the skill to score 27 points a game is ridiculous when you are so much bigger and stronger than everyone else.
    come on he has to pump fake or fade. All 26ppg is made different. The less efficient one is better.

  12. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Some people believed he wasn't the best player because he wasn't winning titles. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. He didn't win and he wasn't the best. Why not? Because he didn't win titles.

    I'd bet money if you made a list for the past 30 years of the best team in the league every year and the best player, the team that was the best will have more titles over that span than the best player in a given year.
    Micheal Jordan was probably the best player in the league from day one til his first retirement
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  13. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    What exactly am I not including? Kobe has 5 titles, was an elite player for all 5, and is regarded by their common peers as the better player. That is the evidence in favor of kobe. LBJ has 3 titles, despite title hopping, having far more star teammates and playing in a far weaker conference. The evidence in favor of LBJ is that he puts up better numbers.

    That is essentially what this debate comes down to: do you trust the titles and the opinion of their peers more than the analytics. I've been saying that advanced analytics are super unreliable (have shown various concrete examples to demonstrate this) and that a big reason LBJ's numbers are better is because of the context I've pointed out (LBJ dominates the ball far more and puts up inflated numbers as a result, a strategy that I've argued is not conducive to winning). Given all of those contextual factors, I'm going with the titles and the opinion of their peers in this case.
    Kobe played with a player better than him. Those hold less wait when you win as Robin. He was Pippen for 3 titles. Those never hold as much weight as being MJ. He also had a GOAT coach. That context takes away from Bron winning with inexperienced coaching.

  14. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    First off, no LBJ would not have started on those teams. Back then High School players didn't get playing time and it had little to do with ability. By all accounts, Kobe was the second best player on the team out of high school but that just wasn't done back then were a rookie out of high school would take an established all-star caliber player's spot. LBJ would have come off the bench on those team out of high school just like every player would have.

    I'm also not blaming LBJ for being in a situation that was conducive to putting up big numbers early on, but it is nevertheless something that needs to be accounted for when making a statistical comparison. And again, any comparisons we make, has to account for the difference in playing alongside someone like shaq, playing within a triangle, differences in era (statistical inflation is a thing...averaging 28 pts today is nowhere near what it was averaging 28 pts in 2001, the latter is much more of an accomplishment due to how the game is officiated now).
    Now this just inst true. Kobe was not near as physically mature as Bron entering the league and needed time. It had to do with ability
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  15. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Lol itís situational for you on everything. So is Duncan better than Kobe? He did not title hop and won with rookies they groomed and developed? One from the second round. Do he gain points that English was not their first language? Or it have another clause he did not score 27ppg? Or is it that Kobe team rebuild was more drastic?
    Duncan never won a back-to-back and only won 4 as a star player and never really was part of a rebuilding team

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