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  1. #451
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    Anthony Davis is a top player in the league and itís not until he wins a title he will be a top player in the league. Confused 🤷

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    Agree to disagree Lebron would have started in whatever era he was drafted. Oh and btw KG and moses malone were drafted out of high school. Would you consider either one of them better than Lebron
    No they are not better than LBJ and they didn't get much playing time right away. In his rookie season, KG only started 43 games (and he was 19, not 18 like kobe and LBJ were) and he was playing on a horrible Minnesota team. Kobe was on a contender. It just didn't happen back in those days where rookies started, especially on a good team and especially if they were out of hs.

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Anthony Davis is a top player in the league and itís not until he wins a title he will be a top player in the league. Confused 🤷
    Per usual, I think you are the one who is confused and your post are equally confusing lol

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Go back and read my posts on this...context is what matters. Everything factor that is discussed must revolve around the context. Some of you seem to be looking for a catch all metric or criterion that we can use in the same way, every single time. That's not going to work because the context will always be different. Statics and titles are meaningless without the context, because the context is what allows for any kind of intelligible interpretation.
    So opinion is better than stats and only use stats when it supports your statement. Ignore it when it disagrees with your point. Gotcha. I'm sorry about the Pau vs Kobe I thought I understood how we were approaching things.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No they are not better than LBJ and they didn't get much playing time right away. In his rookie season, KG only started 43 games (and he was 19, not 18 like kobe and LBJ were) and he was playing on a horrible Minnesota team. Kobe was on a contender. It just didn't happen back in those days where rookies started, especially on a good team and especially if they were out of hs.
    I do get Kobe not starting over Eddie Jones. Jones was no slouch.

    But Cedrick Ceballos over Lebron are you serious? If you are somebody needs to take your basketball card. We cant talk no more.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  6. #456
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    Btw I'm still waiting for Kobe's 8 best seasons so we can compare them to Lebron.

    Wait does it fit your context? Is that something we can talk about? Or are we ignoring the Raw Stats on this as well.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Per usual, I think you are the one who is confused and your post are equally confusing lol
    not confused at all your logic is all opinion based. I got exactly what your saying. Ex Davis is a darn good pf but until he wins 5 rings no way can he be better than letís say Duncan. In the flip side heís better than Pau because how he won, who his teammates were. Etc we all do this itís all options and what one values most.

  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    LBJ's passing and scoring numbers are the ones that are inflated, as is his fg%, because he carefully guards against taking shots that are percentage busters. And yes, it is one title that is the difference in the comparison you highlight, but that's kind of a big thing (there is one title separating magic and mj; and some might not remember it, but that was the sticking point that finally led to mj being widely recognized as the GOAT). I will also note that when comparing titles, we also have to take context into account. LBJ won one on a shortened season (weakens it s little bit) and only a back-to-back then a separate title. The 3-peat carries moderately to considerably more weight because a 3-peat far more challenging to win, as that was the last team in 20 years to do it.

    LBJ's numbers dipped, but not like his star teammates numbers did. Compare that to Shaq or Pau's outputs previously to playing with Kobe. Shaq and Kobe might have said the things you said, but that wasn't the case on the floor. When it came to playing, they played incredibly effectively off of one another. Looking at their career totals, LBJ has actually averaged just a tinge more shots than kobe (although to be fair kobe took more shots during his max seasons than LBJ). However, kobe played within an offense and didn't make it the kobe system, whereas LBJ has made a career out of that. Kobe's numbers would likely be much more inflated if he took a similar approach.
    First, are you now knocking LeBron for not taking bad % shots? But to the argument itself: you already admitted LeBron is a better passer and has superior vision, so even if his assist numbers are inflated they'd still be higher than Kobe's no? And his points may be inflated, but he still took less shots than Kobe, meaning his scoring wasn't as inflated as Kobe's. And in regards to the efficiency, you even admitted that if you adjusted for all the half court shots, etc. Kobe took, it would be closer but LeBron would still be more efficient.

    So your inflated stats argument boils down to: LeBron's efficiency and assists are inflated though if they weren't inflated they'd still be superior to Kobe's #'s in those areas? OK, not much of an argument...

    As for the context we have to take into account, how come you are only taking into account context when it hurts LeBron? How about the context of Kobe being the 2nd best player on those 3-peat teams than LeBron being undisputed #1 on his back to backs? Shaq won all 3 Finals MVPs, won the only MVP between them in that span and finished higher in MVP voting every year. LeBron being #1 on back to backs is more impressive than Kobe being #2 for a 3-peat. You even used this argument in favor of Bosh vs Pau by saying Bosh put up his numbers as a number 3 to Pau's number 2 stats. So when it favors Kobe, use the context, when it favors LeBron, ignore it.

    As for your argument Kobe never made it his system, clearly you weren't watching or paying attention to the NBA from 2005-2008 as that was the exact knock on Kobe.

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    So opinion is better than stats and only use stats when it supports your statement. Ignore it when it disagrees with your point. Gotcha. I'm sorry about the Pau vs Kobe I thought I understood how we were approaching things.
    Context is not opinion. If we're going to look at the context here this is what it is: kobe was the best player on the floor in those finals and the defense was entirely set up to stop him. He could have done nothing and he would have still likely been more valuable than Pau because of the opportunities that him being on the floor created for the rest of the team (because the defense is set up to stop kobe). Pau's production is being influenced by the opportunities that were created by the defense focusing on stopping kobe. Despite that, kobe outproduced Pau quite substantially.

  10. #460
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    Bingo. He got you big moves

  11. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First, are you now knocking LeBron for not taking bad % shots? But to the argument itself: you already admitted LeBron is a better passer and has superior vision, so even if his assist numbers are inflated they'd still be higher than Kobe's no? And his points may be inflated, but he still took less shots than Kobe, meaning his scoring wasn't as inflated as Kobe's. And in regards to the efficiency, you even admitted that if you adjusted for all the half court shots, etc. Kobe took, it would be closer but LeBron would still be more efficient.

    So your inflated stats argument boils down to: LeBron's efficiency and assists are inflated though if they weren't inflated they'd still be superior to Kobe's #'s in those areas? OK, not much of an argument...

    As for the context we have to take into account, how come you are only taking into account context when it hurts LeBron? How about the context of Kobe being the 2nd best player on those 3-peat teams than LeBron being undisputed #1 on his back to backs? Shaq won all 3 Finals MVPs, won the only MVP between them in that span and finished higher in MVP voting every year. LeBron being #1 on back to backs is more impressive than Kobe being #2 for a 3-peat. You even used this argument in favor of Bosh vs Pau by saying Bosh put up his numbers as a number 3 to Pau's number 2 stats. So when it favors Kobe, use the context, when it favors LeBron, ignore it.

    As for your argument Kobe never made it his system, clearly you weren't watching or paying attention to the NBA from 2005-2008 as that was the exact knock on Kobe.
    Well again though, LBJ averages slightly more shots than Kobe. He is more efficient than Kobe but he also scores a lot more at the basket than kobe (bigs are also more efficient than kobe because their points come at the rim). I don't equate efficiency with effectiveness though (although they are certainly correlated). His scoring is actually what I think is probably the most inflated of all of his numbers. I think if he played more team basketball, his averages would be more in the low 20s. So yes, he would still average more rebound and assists and be more efficient (but those would be pretty close and its not as if there is a massive gap there to begin with), the scoring however would not be all that close.

    I am taking context into account with Kobe being the second best player on the team, the thing is though that he was the better than everyone not named shaq at that time so I'm not really sure why that's a knock on kobe. With LBJ's titles, sure it's impressive that he was the #1 guy on both of those, but they came while title hopping and forming a super team. That just carries substantially less weight in my eyes (ignoring kobe altogether, I do not consider those titles on par with titles that are won without doing that). For instance, I consider Dirk's 2011 title to carry substantially more weight than LBJ's 2012 title (not really close if I'm being honest).

    As for the kobe playing the kobe system from 2005-2008, that is debatable, but even if that point is conceded) that's 4 seasons of playing like that vs. 17 (2008 here doesn't fit, because kobe was very much playing within the triangle at that time, so more like 2005-2007).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-21-2019 at 12:02 PM.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well again though, LBJ averages slightly more shots than Kobe. He is more efficient than Kobe but he also scores a lot more at the basket than kobe (bigs are also more efficient than kobe because their points come at the rim). I don't equate efficiency with effectiveness though (although they are certainly correlated). His scoring is actually what I think is probably the most inflated of all of his numbers. I think if he played more team basketball, his averages would be more in the low 20s. So yes, he would still average more rebound and assists and be more efficient (but those would be pretty close and its not as if there is a massive gap there to begin with), the scoring however would not be all that close.

    I am taking context into account with Kobe being the second best player on the team, the thing is though that he was the better than everyone not named shaq at that time so I'm not really sure why that's a knock on kobe. With LBJ's titles, sure it's impressive that he was the #1 guy on both of those, but they came while title hopping and forming a super team. That just carries substantially less weight in my eyes (ignoring kobe altogether, I do not consider those titles won without doing that).

    As for the kobe playing the kobe system from 2005-2008, that is debatable, but even if that point is conceded) that's 4 seasons of playing like that vs. 17 (2008 here doesn't fit, because kobe was very much playing within the triangle at that time, so more like 2005-2007).
    😂

  13. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First, are you now knocking LeBron for not taking bad % shots? But to the argument itself: you already admitted LeBron is a better passer and has superior vision, so even if his assist numbers are inflated they'd still be higher than Kobe's no? And his points may be inflated, but he still took less shots than Kobe, meaning his scoring wasn't as inflated as Kobe's. And in regards to the efficiency, you even admitted that if you adjusted for all the half court shots, etc. Kobe took, it would be closer but LeBron would still be more efficient.

    So your inflated stats argument boils down to: LeBron's efficiency and assists are inflated though if they weren't inflated they'd still be superior to Kobe's #'s in those areas? OK, not much of an argument...

    As for the context we have to take into account, how come you are only taking into account context when it hurts LeBron? How about the context of Kobe being the 2nd best player on those 3-peat teams than LeBron being undisputed #1 on his back to backs? Shaq won all 3 Finals MVPs, won the only MVP between them in that span and finished higher in MVP voting every year. LeBron being #1 on back to backs is more impressive than Kobe being #2 for a 3-peat. You even used this argument in favor of Bosh vs Pau by saying Bosh put up his numbers as a number 3 to Pau's number 2 stats. So when it favors Kobe, use the context, when it favors LeBron, ignore it.

    As for your argument Kobe never made it his system, clearly you weren't watching or paying attention to the NBA from 2005-2008 as that was the exact knock on Kobe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Context is not opinion. If we're going to look at the context here this is what it is: kobe was the best player on the floor in those finals and the defense was entirely set up to stop him. He could have done nothing and he would have still likely been more valuable than Pau because of the opportunities that him being on the floor created for the rest of the team (because the defense is set up to stop kobe). Pau's production is being influenced by the opportunities that were created by the defense focusing on stopping kobe. Despite that, kobe outproduced Pau quite substantially.
    Why word a long reply about context when you got one here. Reply to this one ok. Now whenever you want to start talking Raw stats let me know.

    It kinda looks like all your points are crumbling and you dont want to reply to a lot of the points being made because it doesn't fit your view point. Btw if you would like to use anyone's opinion to make a point why not use the great one, the logo, the architect. I think his opinion outweighs anybody else's. What did the great jerry west say I forgot.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  14. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    Why word a long reply about context when you got one here. Reply to this one ok. Now whenever you want to start talking Raw stats let me know.

    It kinda looks like all your points are crumbling and you dont want to reply to a lot of the points being made because it doesn't fit your view point. Btw if you would like to use anyone's opinion to make a point why not use the great one, the logo, the architect. I think his opinion outweighs anybody else's. What did the great jerry west say I forgot.
    I did reply to that one. LBJ has a career of playing LBJ system b-ball kobe has maybe 3 years of it so of course his numbers are going to be far more inflated. LBJ's titles carry a lot less weight because he title hopped. That is the gist of the reply.

    Also, why ignore what their peers have to say?? There is massive list of these guys picking kobe. People with first hand knowledge. I get that former players don't always have the best takes, but the players on the court usually know who is having the greatest impact on the game. The opinion of your peers, in any field really, carries far more weight than what outsiders think.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-21-2019 at 12:10 PM.

  15. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    😂
    Fortunately for me, whenever you disagree with anything basketball, it's usually the opposite so looks like I'm looking pretty solid here.

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