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  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The debate was in regards to 2010 and it was because kobe had a poor shooting game in game 7 and it was mostly driven by people who hated kobe (of which there were plenty and still are). However, finals MVP doesn't really mean all that much in terms of whether a player is a superstar. Iggy won finals MVP and he was certainly not a superstar nor was he close to being one (at any point in his career).
    Not true at all. Twisting the truth to fit your narrative. Pau Gasol could have won the finals MVP and no one would have complained about it.

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  2. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    An interesting observation in that it's completely incorrect. Perhaps you shouldn't have used the 80's as your example because the best player, MJ, never really got close to a title during that period. What is your explanation there? That MJ wasn't the best player in say 89 when his Bulls lost to the Pistons? By your own logic, IT was the best player in the league.

    As for your trivialization of Bron's 8 finals. That's fine. You can have that opinion. Personally, I don't think Kobe's first 3 rings much of an accomplishment because they were next to Shaq. And yes, LeBron artificially formed all-star caliber teams, but contextually, Kobe played on title teams that had more surrounding talent than any of LeBron's. So your context is really bias masquerading as context.
    MJ was not the best player in the 80s. He wasn't known as the best player until Magic retired. In 91, it was a big debate, similar to around 2010 with Kobe and LBJ as to who the better player was. It wasn't until 92 that the majority of the league shifted to MJ and even then there were still some detractors who were trying to put him and Drexler in the same conversation. Through the early 80s, Kareem was the best player and then it was between Magic and Bird. 1989 was a bit of a fluke, because Magic and Byron Scott got hurt in the opening game of the finals (or in practice) and the lakers got swept. The lakers were heavily favored (and would have likely won that series handedly were it not for those two injuries) in that finals prior to those injuries. Also, note that I said a team that has a top 5 player usually wins. IT was probably a top 5 player in 89, despite the fluke outcome due to the injuries.

    It's a little strange that you wouldnt count Kobe's first 3 titles as carry much weight, because he was a top 10 (arguably top 5 for the first one) and pretty widely recognized as the 2nd best player in the league for the next two with Shaq and also recognized as the best all-around player in the league. That is, he was still an elite player for those 3. By that logic, would you not count a title that LBJ wins with AD as carrying much weight?

  3. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    There's nothing false about the narrative. Kobe did not want to play with Shaq. Whether Shaq wanted to play with Kobe is irrelevant to the point Ewing was trying to make: that Kobe is more able to fit around other star players. Obviously, no he was not able to fit around Shaq for any prolonged length of time. .
    The point was that Kobe better accommodated other players on the floor. I stand by that. He did not force the lakers to run an offense that completely revolved around Kobe. They ran stuff that was good for other players and did not max out Kobe. LeBron's unwillingness to make room for teammates is valid criticism of LeBron just like Kobe's feuding with Shaq and unwillingness to give up the ball at times are valid criticism of Kobe. The Shaq thing overlaps a little but I still think its a little different b/c it was as much about off court stuff as on IMO.
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  4. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    Here we are playing with what ifs. And you are trying to make it fit your narrative when everybody else with agree with the opposite being true. When did we ever get to see Lebron play with a HOF coach? Oh and just add Shaq to that. There wouldn't be a need to trade Eddie Jones from that team. Who was a good SG at the time.
    They traded Eddie jones because everyone thought the lakers would do better with a pure shooter. That wasn't about kobe. Eddie jones was almost traded for Mitch Richmond the year before, who was also a sg.

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The problem with looking at any statistics for LBJ (advanced or otherwise) is that he's arguably dominated the ball more than any other player in NBA history. The entire system is LBJ handling the ball. Obviously that's a credit to his ability and decision making (no argument on that front), but that's going to produce incredibly inflated numbers. James Harden is a perfect example of this and what he's doing is merely an extension of what LBJ has done his entire career (just not to the same extreme). I don't like TS% because the label is awfully misleading. It doesn't account for end of quarter shots that are plus 40-feet. These type of shots are percentage busters, because they are almost never going to go in, but there is only a benefit in taking them and no draw back. These count as misses nonetheless. Players like kobe would also throw those up without hesitation, whereas LBJ rarely does. The difference in their shooting percentages amounts to a little less than 1 made shot per game and when these type of shots get factored in, it really makes their efficiency numbers far closer than most would realize.

    Additionally, Kobe's numbers need to be adjusted for playing alongside Shaq for all of his athletic prime, whereas LBJ has never had that issue. This is actually my only real critique of LBJ. As far as I can tell, his style of play forces other stars to become glorified role players, whereas Kobe and many other greats sacrificed their numbers a bit and formed a synergy with their star teammates. Watching them play, with LBJ it's always seemed to me that it's LBJ OR Wade OR Bosh, LBJ OR Kyrie OR Love...with kobe, it was always AND. Kobe AND Shaq, Kobe AND Pau. I think the former leads to better numbers, but the latter is more conducive to winning.
    Well obviously it wasn't Kobe and Shaq because both of them said "it's either more or the other". As for your point, you don't get to say Kobe's numbers need to be adjusted for playing alongside Shaq and then saying that LeBron's numbers never dipped when playing alongside other stars. LeBron played with other stars and kept his production up and won.

    Kobe won 3 titles and made 4 Finals in his 5 years with Shaq as a top option. LeBron won 2 titles and made 4 Finals in his 4 years with Wade and the Heat. We're talking about the difference in 1 title during their athletic primes. As for LeBron producing inflated numbers, which numbers specifically? Because Kobe took far more shots than LeBron and that certainly inflated his numbers (remember, when he was shooting all these shots, they Lakers weren't winning. He was putting up 35 PPG on 1st round teams).

    So specifically which numbers of LeBron's are inflated? Certainly not his block and steals as they aren't a byproduct of his ball hogging. His rebounds? His shots despite Kobe taking more? So far as I can tell, his numbers are inflated in that his assists are inflated... But you readily admit that he's a better passer and has better court vision than Kobe.

    So when you say his numbers are inflated, which ones?

  6. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    nope, this ignores context completely. For instance, LBJ technically averaged more pts per game, suggesting he was the better scorer, which he clearly was not. Anyone looking at the context would know that kobe came off the bench his first 2.5 seasons because he was in a championship caliber team then his last 2 seasons he was a shell of the player he used to be because of the achilles injury. When looking at their peak 10 seasons of scoring (a decade of basketball) kobe had a higher average in 8 of them (and some are considerably higher). Even this ignores that kobe had to share the ball with shaq for all of his youth and played in a restrictive system, whereas LBJ has always had free reigns to do whatever he wanted. That is, despite that, Kobe was still a considerably better scorer. We can break apart most stats like this as well. None of the stats matter if context isn't interpreted correctly.
    That is not Lebron's fault that he got drafted into a situation that he could play from the start. That being said Lebron would have been a starter if he got drafted in 96 by the Lakers.

    Also those are Raw stats just because they dont fit your narrative doesn't mean that they should be ignored.

    You want to talk stats then talk stats. Dont cherry pick here and there to make your point. The only stat the Kobe has Lebron on is Titles 5 to 3. Even in defense Lebron has better "raw stats" than Kobe but somehow Kobe won 12 all time defensive selections.

    Oh and if you want to go pull up all this 8 season "raw stats" that you want to talk about. I bet that if we do the same with Lebron his numbers would totally eclipse Kobes.

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  7. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    Not true at all. Twisting the truth to fit your narrative. Pau Gasol could have won the finals MVP and no one would have complained about it.
    Lol okay lets look at their raw numbers:

    2009:
    Kobe 32.4 pts, 7.4 ast, 5.7 reb, 1.4 stls, 1.4 blks
    Pau: 18.6 pts, 2.2 ast, 9.2 reb, 0.8 stls, 1.8 blks

    2010:
    Kobe 28.6 pts, 3.9 ast, 8.0 reb, 2.1 stls, .07 blks
    Pau: 18.6 pts, 3.7 ast, 11.26 reb, 0.7 stls, 2.6 blks

    Obviously in 2009 it would have been outrageous to go with Pau, it's a little closer in 2010, but still not really that close.

  8. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    MJ was not the best player in the 80s. He wasn't known as the best player until Magic retired. In 91, it was a big debate, similar to around 2010 with Kobe and LBJ as to who the better player was. It wasn't until 92 that the majority of the league shifted to MJ and even then there were still some detractors who were trying to put him and Drexler in the same conversation. Through the early 80s, Kareem was the best player and then it was between Magic and Bird. 1989 was a bit of a fluke, because Magic and Byron Scott got hurt in the opening game of the finals (or in practice) and the lakers got swept. The lakers were heavily favored (and would have likely won that series handedly were it not for those two injuries) in that finals prior to those injuries. Also, note that I said a team that has a top 5 player usually wins. IT was probably a top 5 player in 89, despite the fluke outcome due to the injuries.

    It's a little strange that you wouldnt count Kobe's first 3 titles as carry much weight, because he was a top 10 (arguably top 5 for the first one) and pretty widely recognized as the 2nd best player in the league for the next two with Shaq and also recognized as the best all-around player in the league. That is, he was still an elite player for those 3. By that logic, would you not count a title that LBJ wins with AD as carrying much weight?
    Some people believed he wasn't the best player because he wasn't winning titles. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. He didn't win and he wasn't the best. Why not? Because he didn't win titles.

    I'd bet money if you made a list for the past 30 years of the best team in the league every year and the best player, the team that was the best will have more titles over that span than the best player in a given year.

  9. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well obviously it wasn't Kobe and Shaq because both of them said "it's either more or the other". As for your point, you don't get to say Kobe's numbers need to be adjusted for playing alongside Shaq and then saying that LeBron's numbers never dipped when playing alongside other stars. LeBron played with other stars and kept his production up and won.

    Kobe won 3 titles and made 4 Finals in his 5 years with Shaq as a top option. LeBron won 2 titles and made 4 Finals in his 4 years with Wade and the Heat. We're talking about the difference in 1 title during their athletic primes. As for LeBron producing inflated numbers, which numbers specifically? Because Kobe took far more shots than LeBron and that certainly inflated his numbers (remember, when he was shooting all these shots, they Lakers weren't winning. He was putting up 35 PPG on 1st round teams).

    So specifically which numbers of LeBron's are inflated? Certainly not his block and steals as they aren't a byproduct of his ball hogging. His rebounds? His shots despite Kobe taking more? So far as I can tell, his numbers are inflated in that his assists are inflated... But you readily admit that he's a better passer and has better court vision than Kobe.

    So when you say his numbers are inflated, which ones?
    LBJ's passing and scoring numbers are the ones that are inflated, as is his fg%, because he carefully guards against taking shots that are percentage busters. And yes, it is one title that is the difference in the comparison you highlight, but that's kind of a big thing (there is one title separating magic and mj; and some might not remember it, but that was the sticking point that finally led to mj being widely recognized as the GOAT). I will also note that when comparing titles, we also have to take context into account. LBJ won one on a shortened season (weakens it s little bit) and only a back-to-back then a separate title. The 3-peat carries moderately to considerably more weight because a 3-peat far more challenging to win, as that was the last team in 20 years to do it.

    LBJ's numbers dipped, but not like his star teammates numbers did. Compare that to Shaq or Pau's outputs previously to playing with Kobe. Shaq and Kobe might have said the things you said, but that wasn't the case on the floor. When it came to playing, they played incredibly effectively off of one another. Looking at their career totals, LBJ has actually averaged just a tinge more shots than kobe (although to be fair kobe took more shots during his max seasons than LBJ). However, kobe played within an offense and didn't make it the kobe system, whereas LBJ has made a career out of that. Kobe's numbers would likely be much more inflated if he took a similar approach.

  10. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    That is not Lebron's fault that he got drafted into a situation that he could play from the start. That being said Lebron would have been a starter if he got drafted in 96 by the Lakers.

    Also those are Raw stats just because they dont fit your narrative doesn't mean that they should be ignored.

    You want to talk stats then talk stats. Dont cherry pick here and there to make your point. The only stat the Kobe has Lebron on is Titles 5 to 3. Even in defense Lebron has better "raw stats" than Kobe but somehow Kobe won 12 all time defensive selections.

    Oh and if you want to go pull up all this 8 season "raw stats" that you want to talk about. I bet that if we do the same with Lebron his numbers would totally eclipse Kobes.
    First off, no LBJ would not have started on those teams. Back then High School players didn't get playing time and it had little to do with ability. By all accounts, Kobe was the second best player on the team out of high school but that just wasn't done back then were a rookie out of high school would take an established all-star caliber player's spot. LBJ would have come off the bench on those team out of high school just like every player would have.

    I'm also not blaming LBJ for being in a situation that was conducive to putting up big numbers early on, but it is nevertheless something that needs to be accounted for when making a statistical comparison. And again, any comparisons we make, has to account for the difference in playing alongside someone like shaq, playing within a triangle, differences in era (statistical inflation is a thing...averaging 28 pts today is nowhere near what it was averaging 28 pts in 2001, the latter is much more of an accomplishment due to how the game is officiated now).

  11. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    Let's use the Dragon Balls and wish that Kobe and Lebron swapped situations. Lebron gets drafted to the Lakers forming a starting 5 of

    Shaq
    Campbell
    Lebron
    Jones
    Van Exel

    How do you think that team would do and how do you think Lebron would. Now same for Kobe.
    Ilgauskas
    Bozer
    Miles
    Davis
    Kobe
    Lol.. Kobe would trust them win more not turning them into role players and Phil would write a book how easy it was to coach Kobe.

  12. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Lol okay lets look at their raw numbers:

    2009:
    Kobe 32.4 pts, 7.4 ast, 5.7 reb, 1.4 stls, 1.4 blks
    Pau: 18.6 pts, 2.2 ast, 9.2 reb, 0.8 stls, 1.8 blks

    2010:
    Kobe 28.6 pts, 3.9 ast, 8.0 reb, 2.1 stls, .07 blks
    Pau: 18.6 pts, 3.7 ast, 11.26 reb, 0.7 stls, 2.6 blks

    Obviously in 2009 it would have been outrageous to go with Pau, it's a little closer in 2010, but still not really that close.
    Wait I'm confused do stats work when discussing basketball or no. I'm just trying to see when we can use them or not.

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  13. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Some people believed he wasn't the best player because he wasn't winning titles. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. He didn't win and he wasn't the best. Why not? Because he didn't win titles.

    I'd bet money if you made a list for the past 30 years of the best team in the league every year and the best player, the team that was the best will have more titles over that span than the best player in a given year.
    Sure, but you can usually ignore who has the best team and just go based on who has the best player. That will usually determine who wins (I'd say at probably 70-85% accuracy). Besides, it's not as though MJ came in the league in 1985 and was immediately the best player. He started getting into the conversation in the late 80s, maybe around 1988 or 1989. It was still a highly contentious debate up until MJ won his 6th title.

  14. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    First off, no LBJ would not have started on those teams. Back then High School players didn't get playing time and it had little to do with ability. By all accounts, Kobe was the second best player on the team out of high school but that just wasn't done back then were a rookie out of high school would take an established all-star caliber player's spot. LBJ would have come off the bench on those team out of high school just like every player would have.

    I'm also not blaming LBJ for being in a situation that was conducive to putting up big numbers early on, but it is nevertheless something that needs to be accounted for when making a statistical comparison. And again, any comparisons we make, has to account for the difference in playing alongside someone like shaq, playing within a triangle, differences in era (statistical inflation is a thing...averaging 28 pts today is nowhere near what it was averaging 28 pts in 2001, the latter is much more of an accomplishment due to how the game is officiated now).
    Agree to disagree Lebron would have started in whatever era he was drafted. Oh and btw KG and moses malone were drafted out of high school. Would you consider either one of them better than Lebron

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  15. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    Wait I'm confused do stats work when discussing basketball or no. I'm just trying to see when we can use them or not.
    Go back and read my posts on this...context is what matters. Everything factor that is discussed must revolve around the context. Some of you seem to be looking for a catch all metric or criterion that we can use in the same way, every single time. That's not going to work because the context will always be different. Statics and titles are meaningless without the context, because the context is what allows for any kind of intelligible interpretation.

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