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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    why is anyone even trying to debate with this? he loves kobe... he gives no ****s about stats... just move on... he has his bias even though he has literally nothing but rings in his corner all while 3 of those rings were with shaq who carried.

    Lebron was always the best player on a championship team... was kobe?
    I'm the biased one, yet you refer to Kobe as being "carried" to 3 rings. No objective fan would ever refer to Kobe as being carried to any of his championships. Kobe was an elite player for all of his championships. He was a top 10 player (arguably top 5) in 2000 and was arguably the best all-around player in the game. For 2001 and 2002, Kobe was pretty widely regarded as the 2nd best player in the league, the best all-around player in the league, and a sizable minority believed kobe was the best player in the league (he wasn't but it was debatable). That is, Kobe was an elite player ALL of his championships. He may not have been the best player on his team for his first 3, but he was better than everyone else in the league (and anyone else in the league during that time would have also been the 2nd best player on their team if they played next to shaq). A player who is carried to a title is someone who is no longer a star (e.g., Duncan in 2014, Kidd in 2011). Was magic carried to 2-3 titles because Kareem was better than him during the first few? Would LBJ be considered to be carried to a title this year (if they win) because AD is a better player at this stage? No, of course not.

    You are also ignoring that LBJ title hopped to get his titles, which to most objective fans, that significantly lessens their worth compared to someone who did not do that. This has nothing to do with LBJ, it's the same with KD (and I love KD's game). However, titles won in this manner, frankly carry a lot less weight in my eyes than titles where a player basically doesn't cheat to get them. I would say the 3 titles kobe won with shaq are worth considerably more than the 3 LBJ won, because even though Kobe wasn't the best player on his team, he didn't take any shortcuts to get them (there is also the 3-peat which alone makes them a considerably more valuable accomplishment). Being the best player on an all-star caliber team that you purposely formed in an artificial manner is just kind of weak and makes those titles somewhat illegitimate (at least as far as I'm concerned...and this has nothing to do with LBJ, that's just how it is).

    And just to be clear, I care very deeply about statistics (my career depends on it). I hate the way they are used in basketball and I hate the way that fans misinterpret them. I won't get into the details, but it amounts to using linear mathematics to study a dynamics systems problem (go google that if you have to). It should not be done and it violates various important mathematical principles (e.g., assumption of independence). Any data that is derived from using these faulty statistics amounts to being useless. To be clear, this isn't my opinion. It's a pretty widely recognized idea and a mathematical rule.

    A good analogy in to advanced analytics is actually the practice of phrenology (feeling out someone's skull for crevices in the skull to try and determine psychological properties about the person). The practice has been entirely debunked, but before it was, scientists and medical doctors used to think that you could feel someone's skull and determine how smart they were, how charming they were, etc. For over a hundred years, personality traits and abilities (i.e., potential) were determined and assessed based on this practice. Just like in basketball, there were consistent measurements, but what they were measuring was NOT of any meaningful importance and in both cases they lead to incorrect conclusions.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by hidalgo View Post
    yea, it's really 3 titles for Lebron as the best player on his team, vs 2 for Kobe. Tim Duncan has 4 as the best player on the team (possibly all 5)

    top 3 players since Jordan retired in 1998 are. Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and LeBron James
    Nah, not very careful reasoning here. Yes, LBJ has 3 titles while being the best player on his team and kobe only has 2, but those 3 were won by forming a super team, which in my eyes, makes them far less valuable then the 3 won with shaq or even the 2 kobe won later in his career. It's hard to quantify just how much less they are worth, but I would estimate one championship won by title hopping like that is worth anywhere from 3/5 to 4/5 of a full championship won without taking that type of shortcut. How many titles would kobe and many, many other superstars have won if they took a similar approach? It's weak and dishonorable in my book and not something that is dignified (I feel the same way about KD and he is one of my favorite players).

    The Tim Duncan argument is arguably even sillier here. First, Tim Duncan one 4 titles as an elite player and one as a role player. Not sure where you are getting that he might have won 5 as being the best player on his team, he was no longer even an all-star caliber player at that point (he was basically a role player and filled a similar role to what Lamar Odom filled on the lakers). Duncan was the 3rd best player on his team for his 5th titles. Kobe may not have been the best player on his team for 3 of the titles, but he was better than Duncan for all of his titles. Even if you disagree with that, Kobe was an elite player for all of his and Duncan was clearly not an elite player for his 5th title so even though they both have 5, Kobe's 5 carry substantially more weight.

    You are also ignoring that Kobe won a 3-peat and a back-to-back, whereas Duncan never did either. As far as individual accomplishments go, 3-peats and back-to-backs carry significantly more merit than winning the same number of titles but not on consecutive years (because the former is much, much harder to do than the latter). Not really a close comparison when anyone stops to think about this. Kobe won 5 as a star, Duncan won 4 as a star (one on a shortened season and none on consecutive years). Kobe's titles >>> Duncan's titles
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-19-2019 at 01:38 PM.

  3. #213
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    My point about advanced analytics is not simply that they do not capture everything (although that is also true and holds for any type of analyses), but that they distort the data in ways that are completely misleading, which can lead to faulty conclusions. I am aware that to some (if not most) on here, this argument might seem kind of vague and unconvincing so I'll show some brief examples here.

    Earlier in this thread, IKH pointed about how Pau consistently had a higher BMP and VORP than Bosh, Love, and Kyrie and used that as an argument as to why Pau was better. It's not an unreasonable argument given what those statistics are purported to measure. However, I've been saying that these types of statistics do not provide meaningful information.

    I went back to 2006 and examined the top 20 on these metrics. At the top of BPM we find LBJ, KG, and Wade and at #4 is Andre Kirilenko. Some of you might not remember him, he was a solid player, but was basically an all-star caliber player and not much else. He is ranked ahead of guys like kobe, Kidd, Duncan, McGrady, CP3, Dirk, Carter, Pierce, and Shaq. These players, along with many others who I did not mention here were vastly superior to Kirilenko, but one might foolishly conclude that Kirilenko is better than these guys using these metrics. Other notable rankings include Ginobli and ben Wallace also being ranked ahead of most of the guys I just mentioned. Looking at VORP for that year, we see guys like Sean Marion ranked ahead of players like Duncan, Carter, A.I., McGrady, Kidd and a lot more.

    These sorts of things can be found in just about every year. I was going to post all of them, but it would take too long. Here are some other notable ones though:

    2007 BPM (Ginobli #3, Marion #8, Camby #9)
    2007 VORP (Marion #4, ben Wallace #8, Camby #14)
    2008 BPM (Ginobli #3, Kirilenko #7, Camby #9, Ronnie Brewer #17)
    2008 VORP (Ginobli #4, billups #7, Camby #10, Shane Battier #14)

    The list goes on and on for just about every year up until now. Some other notable instances are where guys like Chuck Hayes (doubt any of you remember him) ranks something like #16, Joakim Noah ranks in the top 5 many years on these metrics, in a few years Tyson Chandler when he was with the Knicks is in the top 20, in another one you have amir Johnson in the top 20, and my favorite was Channing frye being ranked ahead of a ton of superstars, along with Andrew bogut, Nicolas batum, Danny green, and Trevor ariza.

    I won't go through the whole list, as that would end up being more like an article, which I don't have time to write, but go and take a look for yourselves. In many of these cases, there are role players (some of them barely rotation players) being consistently ranked, year in and year out, ahead of elite superstars like Duncan, KG, Kobe, McGrady, Shaq, Melo, Harden, Durant and many others. These role players were nowhere close to being close to being comparable to these superstars who they are often ranked ahead of. This sort of thing can be found with just about any advanced analytics measure (don't take my word for it, go look for yourself). It's analogous to going to the doctor and taking some test that will incorrectly find cancer in one 1 out of every 4 patients. We wouldn't trust that type of test, because it would be wrong far too often. That is what we get with these advanced analytic measures. They are measuring something, we just have no idea what that is and they often produce really outlandish outcomes, as I've pointed out here.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-19-2019 at 12:49 PM.

  4. #214
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    Kobe vs Lebron: Who is the better player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    My point about advanced analytics is not simply that they do not capture everything (although that is also true and holds for any type of analyses), but that they distort the data in ways that are completely misleading, which can lead to faulty conclusions. I am aware that to some (if not most) on here, this argument might seem kind of vague and unconvincing so I'll show some brief examples here.

    Earlier in this thread, IKH pointed about how Pau consistently had a higher BMP and VORP than Bosh, Love, and Kyrie and used that as an argument as to why Pau was better. It's not an unreasonable argument given what those statistics are purported to measure. However, I've been saying that these types of statistics do not provide meaningful information.

    I went back to 2006 and examined the top 20 on these metrics. At the top of BPM we find LBJ, KG, and Wade and at #4 is Andre Kirilenko. Some of you might not remember him, he was a solid player, but was basically an all-star caliber player and not much else. He is ranked ahead of guys like kobe, Kidd, Duncan, McGrady, CP3, Dirk, Carter, Pierce, and Shaq. These players, along with many others who I did not mention here were vastly superior to Kirilenko, but one might foolishly conclude that Kirilenko is better than these guys using these metrics. Other notable rankings include Ginobli and ben Wallace also being ranked ahead of most of the guys I just mentioned. Looking at VORP for that year, we see guys like Sean Marion ranked ahead of players like Duncan, Carter, A.I., McGrady, Kidd and a lot more.

    These sorts of things can be found in just about every year. I was going to post all of them, but it would take too long. Here are some other notable ones though:

    2007 BPM (Ginobli #3, Marion #8, Camby #9)
    2007 VORP (Marion #4, ben Wallace #8, Camby #14)
    2008 BPM (Ginobli #3, Kirilenko #7, Camby #9, Ronnie Brewer #17)
    2008 VORP (Ginobli #4, billups #7, Camby #10, Shane Battier #14)

    The list goes on and on for just about every year up until now. Some other notable instances are where guys like Chuck Hayes (doubt any of you remember him) ranks something like #16, Joakim Noah ranks in the top 5 many years on these metrics, in a few years Tyson Chandler when he was with the Knicks is in the top 20, in another one you have amir Johnson in the top 20, and my favorite was Channing frye being ranked ahead of a ton of superstars, along with Andrew bogut, Nicolas batum, Danny green, and Trevor ariza.

    I won't go through the whole list, as that would end up being more like an article, which I don't have time to write, but go and take a look for yourselves. In many of these cases, there are role players (some of them barely rotation players) being consistently ranked, year in and year out, ahead of elite superstars like Duncan, KG, Kobe, McGrady, Shaq, Melo, Harden, Durant and many others. These role players were nowhere close to being close to being comparable to these superstars who they are often ranked ahead of. This sort of thing can be found with just about any advanced analytics measure (don't take my word for it, go look for yourself). It's analogous to going to the doctor and taking some test that will incorrectly find cancer in one 1 out of every 4 patients. We wouldn't trust that type of test, because it would be wrong far too often. That is what we get with these advanced analytic measures. They are measuring something, we just have no idea what that is and they often produce really outlandish outcomes, as I've pointed out here.
    advanced stats are full prove when they agree with these guys opinions and meaningless when they donít.


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    Last edited by ewing; 10-19-2019 at 01:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    This advanced stats are full prove when they agree with these guys opinions and meaningless when they donít.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yep, people have to remember that there are no championships for scoring well on advanced analytics. The only way to get those is to go out and win a championship, which is what basketball is about.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-19-2019 at 01:07 PM.

  6. #216
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    Big Moves; youíre awesome.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShadow42 View Post
    Big Moves; youíre awesome.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShadow42 View Post
    Big Moves; youíre awesome.
    He is a fantastic poster. This board has so much ESPN group think


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    He is a fantastic poster. This board has so much ESPN group think


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  10. #220
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    someone crush this guy already. hes legit speaking blasphemy. I cant until prolly tomorrow

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Every single piece of evidence does not back it up. Kobe has 5 titles to LBJ's 3 (probably the most important peice of evidence). The advanced analytics back it up sure, but those are massively flawed and amount to being meaningless in basketball. You are wrong that the players back it up. I posted a long list of players who have gone on record picking kobe. Many of which where LBJ's teammates (e.g., Wade, Bosh, Kyrie), some of which were teammates with both Kobe and LBJ (e.g., Shaq, Jaminson), others were great players (e.g., MJ, Barkely, Kareem, Bird), others were contemporaries of both (e.g., Dirk, Mcgrady, MWP), and others were elite defenders who have guarded both (e.g., Kawhi, Iggy, tony allen). The consensus among ex-players and their contemporaries is actually kobe over LBJ (like it or not that's what it is and there is a massive list of these guys). The only piece of evidence to support LBJ is the advanced analytics, which do not amount to much. So yeah I'll go with the guy who their peers have picked and who who has won the more titles (that is evidence, like it or not).
    Gasol has two titles Kyrie and Live have one, so Gasol is better...right?

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    someone crush this guy already. hes legit speaking blasphemy. I cant until prolly tomorrow
    I dont have it in me.... i really dont... most points will just be ignored for heart and will to win type ****.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Gasol has two titles Kyrie and Live have one, so Gasol is better...right?
    horry has 7.... horry------->jordan.


    rondo has a title... stockton has 0... rondo--->stock

    fisher-------->stock

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    someone crush this guy already. hes legit speaking blasphemy. I cant until prolly tomorrow
    By all means, the floor is yours...but, make sure to address why we should trust measures that produce highly unreliable, outlandish outcomes...because as I've demonstrated and anyone who bothers to look can see, that is exactly what happens (this can be easily empirically verified). Also, when you respond, go ahead and make sure to state exactly why it is okay to openly violate key mathematical principles when conducting these types of analyses, because as I've already stated that is exactly what advanced analytics do. I'll wait until tomorrow for your response...

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    horry has 7.... horry------->jordan.


    rondo has a title... stockton has 0... rondo--->stock

    fisher-------->stock
    This has already been addressed pretty directly, but maybe you missed it so I'll do it again. That is a strawman, because no one is arguing that those guys are better and there is reason for that...because those guys were never elite players. Those were never comparisons that anyone would bother to make. Comparing the titles a role player won to those that a superstar won is silly. Titles do however matter when comparing elite players. If you want to compare role players to other role players then sure, titles would matter again. Not that hard to figure this out.

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