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  1. #1951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Yes, now point to a run. I know there were trash teams in every era, show me the ones that were anywhere near as pitiful as that run in 87.
    The Cleveland Cavaliers in 2007 were worse than any of those teams you call crap. And there were at least 15 $*****ier teams in the NBA than the 2007 Cavs.

  2. #1952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I had written a long response but it got erased, but I will agree they prolly lose most series against that Cavs team sans each others stars. The Lakers went their route knowing Kobe could pick up the scoring slack, they suffer more. I dont buy the Cavs being a playoff team in the East tho. Hughes was often hurt and never really good outside of contract years. The Wizards definitely had more talented players and they barely made it

    And you mentioned some past their prime players, I would argue that Caron was closer to his prime self (in the right role) than Antawn or Shaq were. In many respects, those 2 players held the team back. Shaq really wasn't fitting in and dealt with several injuries. Antawn was such a defensive liability by that point that KG looked 10 years younger against him. At best, Shaq might give you an argument in terms of talent in the right role. Mike Brown was soo stupid he started Shaq at PF(aka alongside another true Center) they were hardly a perfect situation.
    I don't disagree with most of this. I think it's plausible that those Cavs teams could make the playoffs, but yes it would require Hughes staying healthy, otherwise you're probably right they wouldn't.

  3. #1953
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    I donít even know why is a debate. Ray Charles could see the obvious.

    Kobe was clearly in a better situation than Lebron. It was also clear only Phil was able to control Kobe, it was also clear Kobe needed more talent To win like everyone else.

    Itís also clearly lebron made a **** franchise relevant. Itís also clear when lebron leaves the Cavs they become an afterthought. The biggest drop off in win difference ever.

    Again if lebron had the winning culture of Lakers and the experience of head coach Phil. That would have made a difference.

    You just cannot pretend or down play the advantage Kobe had.

    Why compare prime Kobe to inexperience Lebron.
    What about Kobes disadvantages

    Lakers had to play against 35 playoff teams with 50 wins or more. Toughest championship road ever.

    List of MVPís Lakers had to play to reach 5 championships. Only Western Conference.

    Duncan
    KG
    Dirk
    KD
    Harden
    Westbrook
    Robinson
    Malone
    Nash
    Iverson(Nuggets)
    Parker(Finals MVP)

    1996-2016 western conference is by far the peak of Basketball competition. The absolute highest level of Basketball competition.

  4. #1954
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yeah for sure, it's definitely not a given that they would still make the finals without LBJ and it's plausible that they might not. I do think though that the fact that it is debatable says a lot about that team and the east, as I can't think of any other teams (besides the ones LBJ has been on) where if you removed their best player (or even their second best player) it would be arguable that such a team could still make the finals.
    Lol, if you think the Cavs make the finals without Lebron ever, you truly have no idea dear what you are talking about. Look at there win pct without Bron, I dare you. Stop with your bs eye test no proof takes bro. Just stop, I guarantee you wonít find a single Cavs fan who will agree with that ridiculous take my friend. Not one. Itís a take that screams ignorance on the topic.

  5. #1955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    What about Kobes disadvantages

    Lakers had to play against 35 playoff teams with 50 wins or more. Toughest championship road ever.

    List of MVPís Lakers had to play to reach 5 championships. Only Western Conference.

    Duncan
    KG
    Dirk
    KD
    Harden
    Westbrook
    Robinson
    Malone
    Nash
    Iverson(Nuggets)
    Parker(Finals MVP)

    1996-2016 western conference is by far the peak of Basketball competition. The absolute highest level of Basketball competition.
    only one team wins every time. Meaning you dont play every team in playoffs. And again just like everyone else needed help to win rings. so if its the east or west it dont really matter. Could playing against weaker competition be a disadvantage? The psychology behind playing down to weaker competition. Coaches strive to make sure their teams never fall victim to this scenario. Also Going Against Strong Competition Makes You Stronger.

    Did Curry 73-9 GSW had the same trouble Kobe had with stiff competition? This is the same dominant west team east Lebron beat in the finals being down 3-1.
    Last edited by ldawg; 11-28-2019 at 10:45 AM.

  6. #1956
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Lol, if you think the Cavs make the finals without Lebron ever, you truly have no idea dear what you are talking about. Look at there win pct without Bron, I dare you. Stop with your bs eye test no proof takes bro. Just stop, I guarantee you wonít find a single Cavs fan who will agree with that ridiculous take my friend. Not one. Itís a take that screams ignorance on the topic.
    Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. Those Cavs teams winning percentages sucked after LBJ left because (1) obviously LBJ is a great player and (2) they usually blew up the team afterwards. You also need to learn to read and comprehend what other posters say. I said the Cavs with Kyrie and Love could make the finals, which I think they could because the East was horrible.

  7. #1957
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    The Lakers were doing that and that's a testament to their vast strength.

    They were not doing it every year. They lost to #6 seed Houston in 1981 who made the finals. In a series of 3 games. Not 5, not 7.
    They faced a Kansas team that defeated the 2nd best team in the league that year (Phoenix) in a 7 game thriller. Was that Kansas team useless and pathetic just because they didn't have a favorable W-L ratio vs the entire league, that included a much stronger Eastern Conference? I doubt a team that sucks can beat such a strong team in a series of 7 games.

    The Boston Celtics beat the 76ers in the ECF in Game 7 with 1 point difference. They swept the #5 seed of the East and beat the #6 seed of the West in the NBA Finals in 6 games.

    Would you say that season 1983 had no competition? Or that the 76ers was one of the greatest teams of all times that managed to destroy a relatively strong Knicks team, a very powerful Bucks team and sweep one of the best teams of all time in the LA Lakers?

    1985 Lakers didn't face that much more trouble in the Finals vs the Celtics than in their other games, with the exception of the first day which is still lablelled today as Massacre.

    In 1988 the Lakers with the exception of the 1st round played 7 game series until the end.
    Vs the #5 seed of the West, Utah Jazz (47-35 since Chronz loves these things)
    vs the #3 seed of the West, Dallas Mavericks (53-29)
    vs the #2 seed of the East, Detroit Pistons (54-28).

    Lakers were 62-20. Celtics were #1 seed in the East with 57-25 and lost to 6 games to the Pistons.

    And sure, when there's 12 teams in a Conference and 8 of them advance to a playoff stage, some of them won't be really up to the standard. But that's also because there was more talent within some teams due to relaxed or non-existent roster and salary caps that were during that decade or later. Which is why the relative strength may appear greater, but it's not as if all other teams except the Conference winners were any slouches.

    Can you honestly back that up? Can you honestly find a team that Lebron beat in the 2006-7 up to 2009-10 seasons with the Cavs that had at least 2 players you could call an all star calibre playe in any era? I can barely find a total of 2 per season. And don't forget that Lebron was seeded as the# 2 and #1 team in the East in this period. It's not as if he led an #8 seed to the Finals out of nowhere. It was either his team or the other guys. Anything else would have been a surprise.

    We can start with the seaosn I can give you. In 2007 it was the Nets who were a nice team but several years late. But they are a team that you can argue that people would be talking about even 10-20 years from now, since they had a cast of Jason Kidd (34 yrs), Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson. But there's a reason why the Cavs were #1 seed and the Nets the #6 seed. And it's not because "Lebron had no help". And the Pistons were a strong team that were ageing but that's Lebron's greatest feat in his pre-Miami career.

    But then, who?
    2008 it was Antwan Jamison + Caron Butler? Good players, but let's be reasonable. Not really names you'd expect to be perennial all star players in any given era. But that's two... Then, a loss.

    2009 it was Richard Hamilton essentially by himself with the Pistons at that stage and then it was a young Hawks team that had potential, but at the time no one really stood out with the exception of Joe Johnson. Al Horford started becoming an important figure several years later and Josh Smith was a good player but not really all star calibre. Or do we count Bibby's last hurrah here?

    In 2010 it was a young Derrick Rose with 8th seed Bulls. Then a loss to Boston that everyone remembers as Lebron's worst moment, where the #1 seed lost to the #4 seed.


    How many of these guys that Lebron beat will feature in anyone's Top 100 ever players list?
    Then go back to the "******" 80s Western Conference and tell me how many of those guys would feature on the Top 100 list.
    So youre agreeing the lakers were way more talented than their competition, similar to Lebrons teams during his finals appearance runs

  8. #1958
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    only one team wins every time. Meaning you dont play every team in playoffs. And again just like everyone else needed help to win rings. so if its the east or west it dont really matter. Could playing against weaker competition be a disadvantage? The psychology behind playing down to weaker competition. Coaches strive to make sure their teams never fall victim to this scenario. Also Going Against Strong Competition Makes You Stronger.

    Did Curry 73-9 GSW had the same trouble Kobe had with stiff competition? This is the same dominant west team east Lebron beat in the finals being down 3-1.
    You really have very little idea what you are talking about in like 95% of your posts. No, Curry did not have the same trouble Kobe faced because the teams the warriors played often weren't that tough (not one of them was on par with the 2000 blazers, 2002 kings, or several of the spurs teams the lakers beat during their runs).

  9. #1959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You really have very little idea what you are talking about in like 95% of your posts. No, Curry did not have the same trouble Kobe faced because the teams the warriors played often weren't that tough (not one of them was on par with the 2000 blazers, 2002 kings, or several of the spurs teams the lakers beat during their runs).
    OKC Thunder says hi.

    Why do you exaggerate everything the thunder don't belong in a group with those teams, just like that 07 cavs bench was solid
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 11-28-2019 at 01:36 PM.

  10. #1960
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    OKC Thunder says hi.

    Why do you exaggerate everything the thunder don't belong in a group with those teams, just like that 07 cavs bench was solid
    No, definitely not. The thunder do not belong on that list. They were a decent team, but they were far from stacked. The Kings and Blazers are arguably the two best teams to never win a title and I would pick both over most teams that have won a title since. The thunder's roster was solid, but they were nothing special.

  11. #1961
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You really have very little idea what you are talking about in like 95% of your posts. No, Curry did not have the same trouble Kobe faced because the teams the warriors played often weren't that tough (not one of them was on par with the 2000 blazers, 2002 kings, or several of the spurs teams the lakers beat during their runs).
    I be talking facts something you dont acknowledge and rant on on in a circle. Lol your caught up in 1 era. Not because lakers aint good dont mean other teams were not good. LOL So now Curry Klay aint good because the west Suck now that Kobe aint playing? Did they not beat the breaks off KD and OKC? Did they not had to beat the team out the east?

    How many off those teams you play on your way to the finals? At some point dont they play each other to advance in the playoffs? So to name a bunch of teams means nothing.
    Last edited by ldawg; 11-28-2019 at 02:34 PM.

  12. #1962
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    I be talking facts something you dont acknowledge and rant on on in a circle. Lol your caught up in 1 era. Not because lakers aint good dont mean other teams were not good. LOL So now Curry Klay aint good because the west Suck now that Kobe aint playing? Did they not beat the breaks off KD and OKC?

    How many off those teams you play on your way to the finals? At some point dont they play each other to advance in the playoffs? So to name a bunch of teams means nothing.
    Again, you need to learn to read. At what point did I say the warriors weren't good?
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 11-28-2019 at 03:05 PM.

  13. #1963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Again, you need to learn to read. At what point did I say the warriors weren't good?
    Are you not saying the other teams are not good? So the only way they won just like lebron is the road to victory is easier right?

  14. #1964
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    Do you want to change that logic and now say GSW were good? And Lebron won as well because he was good? Or hes winning now in the west because the west is now weak?

  15. #1965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. Those Cavs teams winning percentages sucked after LBJ left because (1) obviously LBJ is a great player and (2) they usually blew up the team afterwards. You also need to learn to read and comprehend what other posters say. I said the Cavs with Kyrie and Love could make the finals, which I think they could because the East was horrible.
    I know Bro. Look how they faired without Bron on the court or not in the game with Kyrie and Love. Thatís exactly what Iím referring to. They donít get out of the first round without Lebron let alone the finals. They loose to Toronto easily in the first round without Lebron and every Cleveland fan will tell you that. Yes this comment still screams ignorance and you arenít watching Cavs games at all. Please stop with these insane takes.

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