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  1. #7636
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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    Lol you're a funny guy but there are millions of people who would agree with me in that both guys are certainly top 5 and that Kobe is also better than LeBron.
    lol nvm i know who you are... flash is to easy... my boy tre is this you? and the millions of people you speak of would be laker fans.

  2. #7637
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    lol nvm i know who you are... flash is to easy... my boy tre is this you? and the millions of people you speak of would be laker fans.
    Lol no my friend. Millions of non-Laker fans as well. Too skilled, too talented, and too accomplished quite frankly. Top 5 all time for me.

  3. #7638
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    lol

  4. #7639
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    @MTM, still fighting the good fight I see.

  5. #7640
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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    Don't worry, I'm not BigMoves. And Kobe was always better
    I can confirm that this is not BigMoves. I can also confirm that I agree with this position. There have been many on here who also agree

  6. #7641
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    In context since itís debatable to fit, entertainment and ring count I can agree. Other than that your going to have a hard time backing.

  7. #7642
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    If he wanted I think Lebron would have to take a game and imitate Kobe for some to realize he can play like Kobe if he wanted. The one area he will fall short is ft shooting. Enough data have been collected over the years and itís clear Lebron cannot shoot free throws consistently as good as Kobe did. This clearly suggest Kobe is the better shooter overall he just took tough shots. I also think Kobe could have imitate Lebron for a game or two but just would not have been able to sustain it.

    Record between the two over the years 16-6 in favor of Lebron.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-29-2020 at 03:33 PM.

  8. #7643
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    If he wanted I think Lebron would have to take a game and imitate Kobe for some to realize he can play like Kobe if he wanted. The one area he will fall short is ft shooting. Enough data have been collected over the years and itís clear Lebron cannot shoot free throws consistently as good as Kobe did. This clearly suggest Kobe is the better shooter overall he just took tough shots. I also think Kobe could have imitate Lebron for a game or two but just would not have been able to sustain it.

    Record between the two over the years 16-6 in favor of Lebron.
    Why does the record between the two matter? That's a very silly thing to bring up. If you're going to bring this up though, why not put it in it's appropriate context, which is that after 2012, kobe was on one team that barely crawled into the playoffs due to a heroic effort by kobe and then the rest of the way his team was one of the worst in the league. In contrast, LBJ was on one of, if not the best team in the league for all of those matchups. How many matchups? Five, all of which were won by LBJ (the final 3 of which kobe was no longer a star player due to the achilles injury). Prior to that, the records were 11-6 (still in LBJ's favor, but also it's completely meaningless and it's kind of strange to try to use regular season win-loss records as argument to support a player; it's really a desperate reach). Anyone being objective or doing their due diligence would've noted that, but the fact that you didn't shows a lot.

    Second, LBJ absolutely could not play like Kobe, because what enabled kobe to play like he did was the insane level of skill that he had, which LBJ does not really come close to having. The fact that you don't realize this says a lot. It's like saying "Shaq could play like Kareem or Hakeem if he wanted to". No he couldn't because those guys spent decades perfecting their craft and shaq did not develop that type of skill. Likewise, same goes for Kobe and LBJ.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 09-29-2020 at 04:52 PM.

  9. #7644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Why does the record between the two matter? That's a very silly thing to bring up. If you're going to bring this up though, why not put it in it's appropriate context, which is that after 2012, kobe was on one team that barely crawled into the playoffs due to a heroic effort by kobe and then the rest of the way his team was one of the worst in the league. In contrast, LBJ was on one of, if not the best team in the league for all of those matchups. How many matchups? Five, all of which were won by LBJ (the final 3 of which kobe was no longer a star player due to the achilles injury). Prior to that, the records were 11-6 (still in LBJ's favor, but also it's completely meaningless and it's kind of strange to try to use regular season win-loss records as argument to support a player; it's really a desperate reach). Anyone being objective or doing their due diligence would've noted that, but the fact that you didn't shows a lot.

    Second, LBJ absolutely could not play like Kobe, because what enabled kobe to play like he did was the insane level of skill that he had, which LBJ does not really come close to having. The fact that you don't realize this says a lot. It's like saying "Shaq could play like Kareem or Hakeem if he wanted to". No he couldn't because those guys spent decades perfecting their craft and shaq did not develop that type of skill. Likewise, same goes for Kobe and LBJ.
    Why look on one end it also have a point when Lebron was also a young player facing a championship vet. Besides it was not to imply Lebron was better because his team won more.

    Name a skill Kobe had that Lebron donít have? Look itís not Lebron fault he is built like a tank and driving to the lane was so easy for him. Itís more easy for him to utilize his advantage more rather than taken a jumper.

    Example why would Shaq be a 3 point shooter when he is a beast in the paint. A smaller player is more likely to be forced to work on jumper.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-29-2020 at 05:25 PM.

  10. #7645
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Why look on one end it also have a point when Lebron was also a young player facing a championship vet.

    Name a skill Kobe had that Lebron donít have? Look itís not Lebron fault he is built like a tank and driving to the lane was so easy for him. Itís more easy for him to utilize his advantage more rather than taken a jumper.

    Example why would Shaq be a 3 point shooter when he is a beast in the paint. A smaller player is more likely to be forced to work on jumper.
    The point is that looking at wins-losses in head-to-head matchup has absolutely no meaningful information (just as your post about triple doubles isn't really all that meaningful either; fyi, Russell Westbrook has over 50 more triple doubles than LBJ in 5 fewer seasons, does that mean that he's "different kind of player"...of course not, because that doesn't really tell us much about anything).

    We've also talked about this before and I dont know if you just forget these things, don't believe them, or just completely ignore them, but having a skill or move is not the same thing as being able to pull it off effectively. I can do all of the moves and shots that you see the pros do, from Kareem to MJ to Kobe to Magic to Bird to KD and I've done a lot these things in fairly competitive games. Do you know what the difference is??? That I'm nowhere near as adept at those skills as all of the players I just mentioned. Pretty much anyone who's played basketball for a decent amount of time (even just recreationally) can do most of the moves you see the pros do, but that doesn't mean they're any good at them. To tie this back to this topic, although LBJ can certainly take and make just about any shot that kobe could, that's true of just about every player in the league, but that doesn't mean they can play like kobe. The difference is how effective they are at them.

    That's not LBJ's game and for a very good reason, because he's not very good at most of the skills that kobe had. It sounds like you believe that LBJ has those same skills (and can be just effective with them) but just chooses not to use them. That's just wrong on so many levels. LBJ is literally incapable of playing effectively, on consistent basis, if he played like kobe did. I think you get easily fooled when you see LBJ hit a turn around jumper and you think "oh he can do that too"...here's some news for you, I can as well, as can many posters on here, and most players in the NBA, but that doesn't mean that most of us can be effective playing like that, let alone at a HOF caliber level (and by most of us, that includes LBJ). LBJ is a great player, but to think that he could adopt the most skilled players style of play on whim and be anywhere nearly as effective is foolish and disrespectful and I think it shows an ignorance about the amount of time that it takes to really develop those types of skills.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 09-29-2020 at 05:46 PM.

  11. #7646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The point is that looking at wins-losses in head-to-head matchup has absolutely no meaningful information (just as your post about triple doubles isn't really all that meaningful either; fyi, Russell Westbrook has over 50 more triple doubles than LBJ in 5 fewer seasons, does that mean that he's "different kind of player"...of course not, because that doesn't really tell us much about anything).

    We've also talked about this before and I dont know if you just forget these things, don't believe them, or just completely ignore them, but having a skill or move is not the same thing as being able to pull it off effectively. I can do all of the moves and shots that you see the pros do, from Kareem to MJ to Kobe to Magic to Bird to KD and I've done a lot these things in fairly competitive games. Do you know what the difference is??? That I'm nowhere near as adept at those skills as all of the players I just mentioned. Pretty much anyone who's played basketball for a decent amount of time (even just recreationally) can do most of the moves you see the pros do, but that doesn't mean they're any good at them. To tie this back to this topic, although LBJ can certainly take and make just about any shot that kobe could, that's true of just about every player in the league, but that doesn't mean they can play like kobe. The difference is how effective they are at them.

    Kobe was just as effective driven to the lane as Lebron Lebron was just better built for it. Kobe hangs double cluth better than Lebron. I am not the one saying Lebron is better at everything like some seem to imply that Kobe was better in everything.

    That's not LBJ's game and for a very good reason, because he's not very good at most of the skills that kobe had. It sounds like you believe that LBJ has those same skills (and can be just effective with them) but just chooses not to use them. That's just wrong on so many levels. LBJ is literally incapable of playing effectively, on consistent basis, if he played like kobe did. I think you get easily fooled when you see LBJ hit a turn around jumper and you think "oh he can do that too"...here's some news for you, I can as well, as can many posters on here, and most players in the NBA, but that doesn't mean that most of us can be effective playing like that, let alone at a HOF caliber level (and by most of us, that includes LBJ). LBJ is a great player, but to think that he could adopt the most skilled players style of play on whim and be anywhere nearly as effective is foolish and disrespectful and I think it shows an ignorance about the amount of time that it takes to really develop those types of skills.

    Westbrook is also a Dynamic player and i always called him mini Mamba. 1 he never learned how to win or does he have Lebron size. I also said Kobe can play like Lebron to but both these players will not be able to sustain it over a career without getting banged up. In Kobes case when the game press he will not stay true to it. These guys do this for a living do not compare them to someone who goes to the park in spare time and mimic a player.

    Again me saying lebron lead teams had a 16 to 6 record over a Kobe lead teams was not intended to imply Leberon was better because of this. Said many times 1 vs 1 or you need a SG Kobe is your best bet. However if i was to start a franchise Lebron. the 16 to 6 means nothing its just the record of these players over the years. I am sure Kobe got the best of Lebron in some cases. Kobe had to he took these things more personal.

    Ok but i want is a move that kobe did that you never saw Lebron do effectively. Pump fake, Fade away, step back, spin move what move Lebron is not as effective?

    List the things you think Kobe is more effective then dont stop there list the things you think Lebron is more effective. If you come back with everything on Kobe side then i know your not being real.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-29-2020 at 07:24 PM.

  12. #7647
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Westbrook is also a Dynamic player and i always called him mini Mamba. 1 he never learned how to win or does he have Lebron size. I also said Kobe can play like Lebron to but both these players will not be able to sustain it over a career without getting banged up. In Kobes case when the game press he will not stay true to it. These guys do this for a living do not compare them to someone who goes to the park in spare time and mimic a player.

    Again me saying lebron lead teams had a 16 to 6 record over a Kobe lead teams was not intended to imply Leberon was better because of this. Said many times 1 vs 1 or you need a SG Kobe is your best bet. However if i was to start a franchise Lebron. the 16 to 6 means nothing its just the record of these players over the years. I am sure Kobe got the best of Lebron in some cases. Kobe had to he took these things more personal.

    Ok but i want is a move that kobe did that you never saw Lebron do effectively. Telling me which one looks better doing it. Pump fake, Fade away, step back, spin move what move Lebron is not as effective?
    The point in comparing them to people who play recreationally is to say that just because you can do a move doesn't mean you can do it effectively or at anywhere near the level that would be necessary to be effective with it.

    As to which moves or skills that Kobe did effectively that LBJ does not, there's a ton. The fallaway jumper for one. Although LBJ can hit it, that's not a particularly good shot for him and he would kind of suck if he relied on that as a go-to shot and took them at anywhere near the rate that kobe did. The pull-up mid range jumper is another one, face-up, jab-step jumper, the step through jumper out of the post after a pump or head fake. The list goes on and on. These are moves that Kobe spent years/decades perfecting and being able to get them down to where he could pull them off against defenses that are game planning to stop it. I'm not even sure I've ever seen LBJ do some of those things, let alone effectively. He can and has done some of them, but no way can he do that consistently in a way that would be effective. He just hasn't developed that part of this game. Frankly. LBJ is not really effective at most of the moves you mentioned. His spin move off the dribble is very effective, but not great when he does it out of the post. LBJ's game is just not predicated on that sort of thing. He has other offensive skills, like being a super skilled passer and an excellent ball handler, but no way do I think he could play like kobe and be effective, just like Shaq wouldnt be able to play like Hakeen or Kareem and be effective.

    Westbrook is also not a mini-mamba. Westbrook seems to pay very little attention to detail and has seemingly become an even worst shooter than he used to be (or at least hasn't improved). Kobe is probably the most methodical player in the history of the game, dissecting the ins and outs of everything the defense and his defenders were doing. Westbrook seems to mostly put his head down and go. He plays with a lot of heart, but he's not all that skilled and doesnt seem to read defenses very well at all nor does he seem to have any interest in learning that nuance in the game.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 09-29-2020 at 07:25 PM.

  13. #7648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The point in comparing them to people who play recreationally is to say that just because you can do a move doesn't mean you can do it effectively or at anywhere near the level that would be necessary to be effective with it.

    As to which moves or skills that Kobe did effectively that LBJ does not, there's a ton. The fallaway jumper for one. Although LBJ can hit it, that's not a particularly good shot for him and he would kind of suck if he relied on that as a go-to shot and took them at anywhere near the rate that kobe did. The pull-up mid range jumper is another one, face-up, jab-step jumper, the step through jumper out of the post after a pump or head fake. The list goes on and on. These are moves that Kobe spent hours perfecting and being able to get them down to where he could pull them off against defenses that are planning to stop it. I'm not even sure I've ever seen LBJ do some of those things, let alone effectively. He can and has done them, but no way can he do that consistently in a way that would be effective. He just hasn't developed that part of this game. Frankly. LBJ is not really effective at most of the moves you mentioned. His spin move off the dribble is very effective, but not great when he does it out of the post. LBJ's game is just not predicated on that sort of thing. He has other offensive skills, like being a super skilled passer and an excellent ball handler, but no way do I think he could play like kobe and be effective.

    Westbrook is also not a mini-mamba. Westbrook seems to pay very little attention to detail and has seemingly become an even worst shooter than he used to be (or at least hasn't improved). Kobe is probably the most methodical player in the history of the game, dissecting the ins and outs of everything the defense and his defenders were doing. Westbrook seems to mostly put his head down and go. He plays with a lot of heart, but he's not all that skilled and doesnt seem to read defenses very well at all.
    Yes Kobe made it more sexy since he is smaller and more acrobatic but they are just as effective. Thats like saying Kobe is not as effective driving to the basket as Lebron.

    Well if Kobe is all these things then Lebron or west brook should not be in the ball park. Niether of these guys should have the skills to run a team to the finals. You dont think Lebron knows the other teams plays the in and outs of the game?
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-29-2020 at 07:37 PM.

  14. #7649
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Yes Kobe made it more sexy since he is smaller and more acrobatic but they are just as effective. Thats like saying Kobe is not as effective driving to the basket as Lebron.

    Well if Kobe is all these things then Lebron or west brook should not be in the ball park. Niether of these guys should have the skills to run a team to the finals. You dont think Lebron knows the other teams plays the in and outs of the game?
    Westbrook is not in the ballpark and has never, ever led a team to the finals. They were fortunate to get out of the first round this season and would not have beaten Utah had they played them (which is who they should've played). It's not that it's sexy when kobe does it, those moves were Kobe's bread and butter and this is why Kobe was so tough to guard and why defenses had to expend so many resources to stop him (this is also why so many elite defenders have expressed many times over that he was tougher to guard than LBJ). Kobe was extremely effective at an all time level playing like he did. You're saying that LBJ could do that and achieve a similar level of success, he absolutely could not.

    LBJ is a great player because even though he's not super skilled like a guy like kobe or bird, he's skilled enough and is incredibly athletic and has great size and strength, It's not all that different as to why shaq and Kareem are comparable or why shaq and Hakeem are on a similar level. I could go on and on about how those two centers were far more skilled than shaq (because they were, as was Ewing, Robinson, and a bunch of other guys), but shaq was incredibly powerful and big and athletic and was skilled enough to do what he did. However, shaq couldn't play like them and still be successful, just like LBJ couldn't play like kobe and still be successful (at least not at an elite level).

    The fact that you think that when LBJ does those moves (most of which he does not do) that they are just as effective as when Kobe did them is frankly incredibly outlandish. I would say that I'm surprised anyone would think that, but I'm honestly not...it explains a lot if I'm being completely honest. The gap in how effective their skilled moves are is massive...not just between kobe and LBJ, you could fill in kobe with a ton of other players who are also much more effective in their skilled moves than LBJ. That's not LBJ's strength. I think you just don't notice these more subtle aspects of the game.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 09-29-2020 at 09:58 PM.

  15. #7650
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    If one compares westbrook to any past great its going to be Kobe. No one is saying he is Kobe but his style of play resembles that of Kobe. Is Westbrook better than kobe was? no. Hes also not as tall as kobe was.

    Shaq and Hakeem are not similar in any kind of way other than they both played center. One is beast of a player adominant one the outer is highly skilled finness player. Shaq massive size forced the nba to change rules a defensive match up nighmare for coaches.

    Kobe played a midrage game. Later in his career he learned the dream shake and pump fake fade. The only move i never saw lebron do is the pump fake.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-29-2020 at 10:36 PM.

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