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  1. #3511
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    I'm so glad the three stooges are getting on board with each other and agree that I'm wrong. Makes this so much easier.

  2. #3512
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I'm so glad the three stooges are getting on board with each other and agree that I'm wrong. Makes this so much easier.
    not really... i argue with these other dudes daily,,, i just expect substance/facts/informational data/non hypocritical BS when i take part in any debate and quite frankly,,, you cant hit the expectations and its no offense... some people just let their hate over take their logic/facts... i get it and understand it just wont hold merit here.

  3. #3513
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Hall of Famers, sure.

    Because that's what matters the most. A deed given for a full career accomplishment is a much more important parameter than say considering at what time in their career they met and under which circumstances.

    If you want to play the HoF game then Lebron played with Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen. All Hall of Famers. Three of which were in their prime.

    You're such a waste of time. I told you to make up your own top 10 or top 100 and figure it out, I didn't tell you to use mine. The only flaw here is that you are stubborn as **** and you think that everyone who doesn't accept your view is a moron. Which is the most moronic view you can have...

    And I didn't post those lists to show that people don't rate Lebron, I posted it because it offers something different in this thread. Some have Kobe over Lebron (the original point), almost all have Larry Bird over Lebron, yet what you fail to realize is that real basketball fans in Europe have turned their back to the NBA. It is considered a circus for over a decade now. Its legitimacy as a professional league is as strong as the WWE. Mainstream media and generally media outlets in Europe mostly follow the American media and they also want to hype up modern players because they have to have people following what they are covering. Still, you see them hyping up Karl Malone. Almost in every top 10 list. Why? Stats mostly. And longevity. This is also why they rate Lebron aside from the fact that he's the most popular player in the last 10 years.

    Now, you do your own top 10s and top 100s and tell me who Lebron faced and who he played with in comparison with Kobe, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, West, Baylor, Oscar and Wilt. And Drexler and Barkley while you're at it.
    First Bolded: I purposefully left out players like Shaq who he faced in Boston because they were obviously no longer good players. Not to mention the entire concept shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes good basketball teams. Are you saying the only way to face an elite basketball team is if they had a Top 10 player on it? Or a dozen Top 100 players? The 2004 Pistons were one of the better teams in the league and beat a team with 2 Top 10 players that season (and 2 Top 10 all-time, and 4 Top 100 all-time) and they feature 1, maybe 2 Top 100 players (and zero Top 50) on it.

    But that being said, are you really going to say he didn't face any top competition? He defeated the Boston Big 3 literally a year after they went to the Finals, then defeated them again the next year, then defeated a Thunder team that featured 3 eventual MVPs (who at the time were just an All-NBA 1st, All-NBA 2nd and the 6th Man of the Year), defeated the Spurs in 2013 while Duncan was All-NBA 1st and Parker was All-NBA 2nd, and then defeated a Warriors team that had All-NBA 1st team (and unanimous MVP Steph Curry), an All-NBA 2nd Team, and an All-NBA 3rd team player.

    I'd stipulate that I'd perform your scenario of Top 10 and Top 100 players in terms of who they faced if who they had on their team cancels out (i.e. if Kobe played a Top 10 player in Duncan but had Shaq, that cancels out). Suddenly guys like Kobe, Bird, Magic, Shaq, etc. don't look like they faced so much more than LeBron because well, they had a lot of help themselves.

    Second Bolded: Chris Bosh is actually not in the Hall of Fame... So he played with 2 Hall of Famers, one who was not nearly in peak form. Suddenly his Heat team doesn't sound so stacked lol.

    Third Bolded: You aren't getting it. It's not about your list specifically, it's about the inherent flaw of only using your personal opinion and no objective data to come to your conclusion. To show you how flawed this methodology is, I could say my Top 10 all-time list is "MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Durant, Westbrook, Garnett, and Paul Pierce" and then go "See? LeBron defeated 4 of the top 10 players in NBA history in back to back series to win a title. Look how good he is!" That's the flaw, it's only going to reinforce your bias.

    Fourth Bolded: So now you're actively crapping on the lists you just gave us lol. So add European media and fans to the list of people who don't know what they're talking about. It's basically everyone but you at this point...

  4. #3514
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    If you were nicer you wouldnít need to invent friends


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You are the master of make believe

  5. #3515
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    The best teams since LeBron entered the league are generally considered to be the Warriors, the Kobe Lakers, the Spurs, the Celtics big 3, the Bron Cavs v2.0, and the Heat.

    LeBron defeated 3/4 teams and was on the other 2. LeBron faced the best this era had to offer.

  6. #3516
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    Nope, just trying to add a parameter because you keep saying that he faced great players and whatnot.

    You can obviously talk about top teams and all that, but there's not much to say there about Lebron's path to the Finals with a couple of exceptions I can number in one hand. Which is just not enough when you see how many times he's made it to the Finals.

    Bosh not being a Hall of Famer but being a top 10 player when he played with Lebron is exactly proof of how low the quality was back then. Bosh is a good player but he's not an elite one. He was one of the best players in the league in the 2006-2013 period. Many teams would love to have Bosh in his prime back then. How many all time PFs would you take over him though? Just reduces Lebron's legacy really when put in perspective.

    About the flaw you mention, the problem is that you're making it up.

    And no, it's not everyone but me. European media doesn't do rankings otherwise there'd be 100s of them and not just a couple of obscure ones.
    Every respectable NBA journalist over here doesn't have Lebron ahead of Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. I'll be very surprised to find one unless he's a 25 year old which mean he's not really into the "respectable" category, at least yet.
    Most of them have Kobe higher than Lebron and even guys who commentate on NBA games are baffled at how low the level has become.
    There's no one credible out there who honestly believes Lebron James belongs to the same level. At the same time, and this is where I also stand, everyone accepts that he deserves to be mentioned in NBA's Pantheon as the greatest player of his era, a player with remarkable longevity and length of prime. But no one will say that he's top 5. There's not enough room for top 5. Top 10 is also a stretch for the majority of them. Kobe on the other hand tends to be mentioned, but as I said, there's not some fetish to rank players in Europe like there is in the USA. You won't find that. But you hear them speak about old players and sometimes compare them to modern ones.
    The ones that do just follow ESPN, SLAM and even Bleacher Report gets echoed a lot. So yeah, that's basically the standard.

    But talking basketball with so many paragons of the sport as well as fans, the common factor is that the level of NBA competition is a joke even if there are some great players around. It's just not a great league anymore. And that hurts legacies.

    You are free to sign up to European based basketball forums and ask the question yourself and see what type of responses you will get. They will vary for sure, but the majority will be telling you what I just said.

  7. #3517
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    You are the master of make believe
    I'm just a regular guy
    Rep Power: 0




    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  8. #3518
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Nope, just trying to add a parameter because you keep saying that he faced great players and whatnot.

    You can obviously talk about top teams and all that, but there's not much to say there about Lebron's path to the Finals with a couple of exceptions I can number in one hand. Which is just not enough when you see how many times he's made it to the Finals.

    Bosh not being a Hall of Famer but being a top 10 player when he played with Lebron is exactly proof of how low the quality was back then. Bosh is a good player but he's not an elite one. He was one of the best players in the league in the 2006-2013 period. Many teams would love to have Bosh in his prime back then. How many all time PFs would you take over him though? Just reduces Lebron's legacy really when put in perspective.

    About the flaw you mention, the problem is that you're making it up.

    And no, it's not everyone but me. European media doesn't do rankings otherwise there'd be 100s of them and not just a couple of obscure ones.
    Every respectable NBA journalist over here doesn't have Lebron ahead of Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. I'll be very surprised to find one unless he's a 25 year old which mean he's not really into the "respectable" category, at least yet.
    Most of them have Kobe higher than Lebron and even guys who commentate on NBA games are baffled at how low the level has become.
    There's no one credible out there who honestly believes Lebron James belongs to the same level. At the same time, and this is where I also stand, everyone accepts that he deserves to be mentioned in NBA's Pantheon as the greatest player of his era, a player with remarkable longevity and length of prime. But no one will say that he's top 5. There's not enough room for top 5. Top 10 is also a stretch for the majority of them. Kobe on the other hand tends to be mentioned, but as I said, there's not some fetish to rank players in Europe like there is in the USA. You won't find that. But you hear them speak about old players and sometimes compare them to modern ones.
    The ones that do just follow ESPN, SLAM and even Bleacher Report gets echoed a lot. So yeah, that's basically the standard.

    But talking basketball with so many paragons of the sport as well as fans, the common factor is that the level of NBA competition is a joke even if there are some great players around. It's just not a great league anymore. And that hurts legacies.

    You are free to sign up to European based basketball forums and ask the question yourself and see what type of responses you will get. They will vary for sure, but the majority will be telling you what I just said.
    I know youre trying to pump up the heat as much as possible, but I don't think Bosh was a top 10 player with the heat. Top 15? possibly He averaged about 17/7 with Lebron in Miami
    YOU JUST MADE THE LIST!!!!!

    HAPPY RUSSEV DAY!!!

    2019 PSD Fantasy Nascar Champion

  9. #3519
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    If Bosh was a Top 10 top 15 player it donít matter. Itís possible for him to be a top 10 at the time but his impact on winning was not high. People are trying to create a negative narrative for a newly constructed team losing in the finals. They all lost at some point. Its a useless argument. Now had they not won at any point after being constructed then that would have been a different story.
    Last edited by ldawg; 02-21-2020 at 03:22 PM.

  10. #3520
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Nope, just trying to add a parameter because you keep saying that he faced great players and whatnot.

    You can obviously talk about top teams and all that, but there's not much to say there about Lebron's path to the Finals with a couple of exceptions I can number in one hand. Which is just not enough when you see how many times he's made it to the Finals.

    Bosh not being a Hall of Famer but being a top 10 player when he played with Lebron is exactly proof of how low the quality was back then. Bosh is a good player but he's not an elite one. He was one of the best players in the league in the 2006-2013 period. Many teams would love to have Bosh in his prime back then. How many all time PFs would you take over him though? Just reduces Lebron's legacy really when put in perspective.

    About the flaw you mention, the problem is that you're making it up.

    And no, it's not everyone but me. European media doesn't do rankings otherwise there'd be 100s of them and not just a couple of obscure ones.
    Every respectable NBA journalist over here doesn't have Lebron ahead of Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. I'll be very surprised to find one unless he's a 25 year old which mean he's not really into the "respectable" category, at least yet.
    Most of them have Kobe higher than Lebron and even guys who commentate on NBA games are baffled at how low the level has become.
    There's no one credible out there who honestly believes Lebron James belongs to the same level. At the same time, and this is where I also stand, everyone accepts that he deserves to be mentioned in NBA's Pantheon as the greatest player of his era, a player with remarkable longevity and length of prime. But no one will say that he's top 5. There's not enough room for top 5. Top 10 is also a stretch for the majority of them. Kobe on the other hand tends to be mentioned, but as I said, there's not some fetish to rank players in Europe like there is in the USA. You won't find that. But you hear them speak about old players and sometimes compare them to modern ones.
    The ones that do just follow ESPN, SLAM and even Bleacher Report gets echoed a lot. So yeah, that's basically the standard.

    But talking basketball with so many paragons of the sport as well as fans, the common factor is that the level of NBA competition is a joke even if there are some great players around. It's just not a great league anymore. And that hurts legacies.

    You are free to sign up to European based basketball forums and ask the question yourself and see what type of responses you will get. They will vary for sure, but the majority will be telling you what I just said.
    First Bolded: Not enough when you see how many times he's made it to the Finals? He's been the to the Finals 9 times. There are only 2 Top 10 caliber players who have been to the Finals more (Kareem and Russell). This is his 17th season and in the previous 16 he's been to the Finals 56% of the seasons he's been in the league. If anything this shows how great you think he is, that your standard for him is he must make the Finals every year of his career. Imagine being so hateful of a person who has made 8 of the last 9 Finals and your complaint is that they didn't make the Finals often enough lol.

    Second Bolded: Who the heck ever thought Bosh was a top 10 player? He was All-NBA 2nd team once in 2007 (also the only time he cracked Top 10 in MVP voting at 7th). That does not scream Top 10 player. Here were some lists from that season and where he ranked:

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ers-in-the-nba

    Bosh 13th

    https://www.foxsports.com/nba/galler...players-102110

    Listed in "next best 5" after the top 10

    https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slam-...-players-2011/

    Bosh 17th

    https://www.businessinsider.com/lebr...nkings-2011-10

    Not in Top 10


    See? This is what I'm talking about. You say demonstrably false things and act like they're right. Now suddenly, when Bosh had zero accolades pointing to him being Top 10, and nobody from that time was listing him in their top 10, somehow he is Top 10. What are you basing your belief that he was top 10 on?

    Third Bolded: No, not every one of them does. But that's not my problem with your rankings. You had Clyde Drexler ahead of him. Find me a respectable Journalist who has Drexler ahead of LeBron and then come talk.

    Fourth Bolded: This is more proof. Who are you talking about? Who does not have LeBron in their top 10? You spout complete bull**** and ask us all to accept it. Here is a literal google of "greatest nba players of all-time" and this is the first 5 pages of results that would load:


    https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/c...on-curry-rank/

    LeBron #2

    https://www.foxsports.com/nba/galler...history-100716

    LeBron #2

    https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-l...rs-of-all-time

    LeBron #5

    https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams...on-james-no-2/

    LeBron #2

    https://thesportsdrop.com/articles/r...ba-history/25/

    LeBron #2

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...op-50-revealed

    LeBron #2

    https://fadeawayworld.net/2019/10/31...-by-accolades/

    LeBron #5

    https://herosports.com/nba/top-50-gr...in-nba-history

    LeBron #2

    https://www.interbasket.net/news/the...nbarank/19115/

    LeBron #3

    https://seatgeek.com/tba/sports/top-...s-of-all-time/

    LeBron #2

    https://hoopshabit.com/2018/09/21/nb...ayers-time/50/

    LeBron #2

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacglov...r-of-all-time/

    LeBron #4

    https://www.thetoptens.com/basketball-players/

    LeBron #3

    https://www.jetpunk.com/quizzes/top-...rs-of-all-time

    LeBron #3

    https://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/08/mi...y-nba-greatest

    LeBron #5

    https://www.quora.com/Who-is-the-bes...er-of-all-time

    LeBron #3

    https://247sports.com/nba/cleveland-...ver-121220549/

    LeBron #2

    https://rateyourmusic.com/list/scrab...f-all-time/11/

    LeBron #3

    https://www.buzzfuse.net/166-1/50-gr...n-nba-history/

    LeBron #1



    https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/...rs-of-All-Time

    LeBron #9

    https://www.fantasyteamadvisors.com/...s-of-all-time/

    LeBron honorable mention for Top 10


    Now, you can look at a specific list by itself and say it's not credible. But the point is it's every list. Out of 21 lists, 19 had him Top 5. So when you say "no one has him top 5", who the heck are you talking about? 20/21 lists had him Top 10, so when you say "Top 10 is a stretch for most", who are you talking about?

    At this point, I want to see who these people are you keep referencing that simply don't have LeBron in their Top 5.

    He is nearly unanimously in everyone's top 5 at this point. So I want to know who you are talking to that you are so out of touch with reality on this one.

  11. #3521
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    I know youre trying to pump up the heat as much as possible, but I don't think Bosh was a top 10 player with the heat. Top 15? possibly He averaged about 17/7 with Lebron in Miami
    Did he regress from 2009 to 2010? No. There were more players to compete for points and the style of play was different than what Bosh exceled at. So please don't imply that Bosh's stats with the Heat are of any relevance. He was a top 10, or even top 15 player at worse.

    I'm pretty sure I recall many Knicks fans preferring going for Bosh instead of Amare back then and Amare was also considered a top 15 player.

  12. #3522
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    Lol at Valade for nitpicking to show his quality. Not top 10 but top 15

    Well done Sherlock, you've proven you're thick.

  13. #3523
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/c...on-curry-rank/

    LeBron #2

    US media

    https://www.foxsports.com/nba/galler...history-100716

    LeBron #2

    US media

    https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-l...rs-of-all-time

    LeBron #5

    Do you know how Ranker works?

    Lebron is the second with the most downvotes in the top 20. The first one is Julius Erving who is #2 for some reason.


    https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams...on-james-no-2/

    LeBron #2

    SLAM magazine? Okay
    Durant #13 and Westbrook #37 as well

    https://thesportsdrop.com/articles/r...ba-history/25/

    LeBron #2

    Some dude who posts NFL stuff decided to talk about the NBA

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...op-50-revealed

    LeBron #2

    Bleacher Report is good now?
    With Steph Curry #10? Hakeem #13? Durant #15? Nowitzki #17? Harden #27? Westbrook #36?

    Excellent list as usual

    https://fadeawayworld.net/2019/10/31...-by-accolades/

    LeBron #5

    It's just an article that ranks players according to individual accolades
    Would you have said Lebron was #6 if he was replaced with Duncan who is listed as #6 but also has an equal amount of accolades I wonder?

    https://herosports.com/nba/top-50-gr...in-nba-history

    LeBron #2

    US media again

    https://www.interbasket.net/news/the...nbarank/19115/

    LeBron #3

    Nope. This is ESPN's list

    https://seatgeek.com/tba/sports/top-...s-of-all-time/

    LeBron #2

    A website that sells tickets to sporting events....

    https://hoopshabit.com/2018/09/21/nb...ayers-time/50/

    LeBron #2

    A guy in his late 20s made this list and currently reports on the NBA.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacglov...r-of-all-time/

    LeBron #4

    Yeah, buddy. This is a Forbes list. From this guy:
    I am a digital marketer based in the Bay Area covering sports and technology. In college, I was an NCAA student-athlete. After moving on from college basketball I dove head first into entrepreneurship and technology. My involvement has spanned from the east to the West Coast, where I have worked with "the world's youngest venture capitalist" and award-winning tech startups doing business development and digital marketing. I have implemented and directed a variety of programs such as entrepreneurship workshops and a 48-hour hackathon to connect students and startups. Iím from Fall River, MA.
    https://www.thetoptens.com/basketball-players/

    LeBron #3

    Another popularity website where I can just click on players to give them upvotes

    A real fanboy's treasure

    https://www.jetpunk.com/quizzes/top-...rs-of-all-time

    LeBron #3

    A quiz based on ESPN's list. Wow!!!!!

    https://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/08/mi...y-nba-greatest

    LeBron #5

    I'm impressed that Sports Illustrated has their poster boy only at #5

    https://www.quora.com/Who-is-the-bes...er-of-all-time

    LeBron #3

    Quora?? Seriously?


    https://247sports.com/nba/cleveland-...ver-121220549/

    LeBron #2

    Another ESPN tribute

    https://rateyourmusic.com/list/scrab...f-all-time/11/

    LeBron #3

    A list by scrab barista in a website called rate your music

    https://www.buzzfuse.net/166-1/50-gr...n-nba-history/

    LeBron #1

    Charlie Blacks the Second must be some really respectable basketball expert having Lebron James in his number 1 on a website not even his own mother has heard about

    https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/...rs-of-All-Time

    LeBron #9

    I'm very interested to the other top 10 lists this guy has made.
    For more information, go here https://hubpages.com/@dailytop10


    https://www.fantasyteamadvisors.com/...s-of-all-time/

    LeBron honorable mention for Top 10

    Not really. There's a list of 10 players. Then there's honorable mention of two other names which means they complete the Top 12 as #11 and #12. I'm really curious as to why you let a list with Sam Jones as #8 and Bill Russell at #2 come through when it also shows Kobe at #7 and Lebron outside the top 10...


    And why I say "US media" for some as the sole reason for not going any further? Because Lebron sells. There's too many fanboys to please so the media has been catering for their clientele for years. When Lebron retires and his friends aren't involved in the media, we'll see if this stands. I'm pretty sure the shunned voices will return and normality will return along with it.

  14. #3524
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post


    And why I say "US media" for some as the sole reason for not going any further? Because Lebron sells. There's too many fanboys to please so the media has been catering for their clientele for years. When Lebron retires and his friends aren't involved in the media, we'll see if this stands. I'm pretty sure the shunned voices will return and normality will return along with it.
    Do you mean the same way they stopped for MJ, Magic, Larry, Wilt, Kareem, etc.
    Last edited by ldawg; 02-22-2020 at 11:13 AM.

  15. #3525
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Did he regress from 2009 to 2010? No. There were more players to compete for points and the style of play was different than what Bosh exceled at. So please don't imply that Bosh's stats with the Heat are of any relevance. He was a top 10, or even top 15 player at worse.

    I'm pretty sure I recall many Knicks fans preferring going for Bosh instead of Amare back then and Amare was also considered a top 15 player.
    That had more to do with the fact Bosh was 3 years younger and didnít have an injury history...

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