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  1. #3466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I think it's a choke. I understand the defense was geared towards stopping him but he was too hesitant at times. If I didn't know better I would think he threw the game.

    My only question is, how many years till he makes up for 1 awful finals, can we hold that against him if he wins this year?
    This...Iím still not sure he didnít throw the game(s)

  2. #3467
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Warriors get mad overrated here as usual. They were just a more polished Rockets in a period of vacuum in the league.

    Had they won, they'd have to be called the GOAT team. But let's ignore how the series went on and why they collapsed. It was all because of Lebron, right?
    Donít ignore Lebron averaging about 36/11/9 and basically having a better finals series than anybody ever.

    Not to mention he lead the entire series in pts/reb/asst/stl/blcks on both teams, something that has never been done before, while beating the regular season best record ever team in nba history. It was the epitome of a GOAT performance lmfao. There is nothing else that can be f-ing done at that point.
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 02-20-2020 at 04:49 PM.

  3. #3468
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    Wade took over in the clutch.

    Wade was the captain.

    It was ďWade CountyĒ.

    It was Wadeís team, his franchise, his city.

    So hearing that James deferred to Wade in the big moment, in the NBA Finals, when he hadnít at any other point is obvious. What was he going to do? Snatch the throne from right under Wade. In the NBA Finals, itís true that the Dallas Mavericks did all they could to make James defer, which only increased the likelihood that James would let Wade be the one to takeover. Wade took 18 more shots and 29 more free throws than James in the 2011 NBA Finals despite Jame having a higher field goal percentage and higher three-point percentage.

    He ended up averaging 26.5 points per game.

    James averaged 17.8 points per game.

    Wade realized that for the team to succeed, he needed to take a step back and let LeBron become the top guy. Thatís not an easy pill to swallow for an all-star talent to play second fiddle. Wade lead his team to a championship before, which is something LeBron had not done yet. Miami was Wadeís city, and yet he unselfishly avoided conflict and told LeBron that it was his time to take over. Wade was an unbelievable player, but he was not LeBron, and he knew that. For the good of the team, he let LeBron take the keys and lead the way as Wade happily became his sidekick.
    Last edited by ldawg; 02-20-2020 at 12:03 AM.

  4. #3469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Hmmm. Kareem in 73? If that's what you mean, yes it was pretty bad. Not as bad as Bron in 11 though. Big O was on his way out, though played pretty well, and Dandridge played like **** too. Kareem played poorly, but it's not like he had his two running mates in the peak of their primes either. It was Kareem's third year in the league as well as Dandridges. Big O was 34 and in those days, 34 meant 74 lol. Yes, they lost to an inferior opponent, and yes they were most likely the odds on favorites. However, was his team ballin and in a position to win all those games late in fourth quarters where Kareem simply disappeared? Can the loss/upset be mostly attributed to Kareem. Probably actually lol, just not quite as much as LeBron James in 2011. Wade and Bosh were ballin and he simply disappeared when they needed him most. He had two guys in the peak of their primes as well as himself. It was all of their 8th years in the league as well. James just went into deer in headlights mode. I've literally never seen anything like that. Like ever.
    It was undoubtedly worse, like you said Big O delivered and it wasn't like the Warriors were world beaters at the time. Even worse, Rick Barry was pretty badly hobbled for a significant portion of the series, so it would be as if Bron had lost to the Mavs without a healthy Dirk, worse considering the Mavs were at least a stronger/championship caliber team at full health. It got to the point where his own coach was blaming KAJ(and yes Dandridge) for the losses, wondering why he wasn't going ham against Nate. The team started questioning if anyone had the heart to win.

    Maybe the Bucks weren't the best team that year but they were in the class with the 3 other powers (Knicks, Celtics, Lakers) that made the Final 4 AND finished with the best team numbers that year right alongside of them. The Lakers would make quick work of the Warriors in the following round. They themselves knew they were the better team, but the other guys simply outplayed them. Everyone knew KAJ had let them down, he would never again have that bad of a playoff run for the rest of his prime.



    The similarities are pretty remarkable, both had a 2-1 lead(with both having their best games early in that lead), both had a HOF teammate outplay them, both suffered similar statistical drops with regards to PER (Bron was at 27 that year but 17.1 in the Finals, vs 28.5 & 17.7 for KAJ). TBH, its a bad showing for both of their standards but I've seen a guy like Pippen win an NBA finals not playing up to snuff, its juts well beneath the standards of a GOAT candidate.

    What makes Brons more acceptable in my eyes was that he at least had made the Finals, lost to the champions in what was Y1 of an experiment on a very shallow team. KAJ was locked down, lost to a vastly inferior team that wasn't even at full health and no where near championship caliber even at full health. It was the far greater upset than an NBA Finals, especially given that Dallas had swept the defending champs and made quick work of the soon to be Conference Champs thereafter.

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  6. #3471
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    that's a pretty awful list

  7. #3472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    that's a pretty awful list
    I could see players moving up or down like two slots but nothing to drastic. I think they are going strictly on numbers.

  8. #3473
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    Looking at that list Lebron is no question in top 5. I wont put him at # 1 however.

  9. #3474
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    Worst list Iíve ever seen

  10. #3475
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    I could see players moving up or down like two slots but nothing to drastic. I think they are going strictly on numbers.
    They got Drob wrong by at least 10 spots

  11. #3476
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    They got Drob wrong by at least 10 spots
    Yep 37 is probably a better # for him


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  12. #3477
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    How are the Warriors better than the 80s Lakers? Are you being real here?

    Non-handchecking era Warriors where the best thing they do is shoot threes? Come on man, that game doesn't translate to any other era. In the early 2000s they'd get a beating and a half and be a first round exit team. That cannot be a GOAT team.

    You keep calling the Warriors "such a talented team". I was one of the few rating Iguodala on these forums the for first half of the decade when he was considered a scrub or whatever people were calling him. He's a nice asset to have, but he's not a Top 100 player in the history of the NBA.

    Who else? Steph Curry? Sure, excellent ball handling (again, non-handchecking era and completely different rules from dribbling that have been changing since the 60s every decade or less) and even better shooting. Very good passing skills. Top 30 player ever? No. Probably not even top 10 PG ever.

    Klay Thompson. Excellent shooter. One of the top 10 maybe. That's about it. Not a top 20 shooting guard by any normal standard.


    As for Lebron, I'll give you stats, but stats do not confirm anything. It's those stats that make you say these things, it's the other way around. Play, context and the famous "eye test" consider Lebron to not be a top 5 player. But pure stats would tell you he is. And I would agree if this was Baseball or Volleyball or any other static or non-contact sport. But it's basketball and deep stats are meaningless when you're comparing top players. It all boils down to this. Who do you give the ball to and expect, throughout the entire game, to have the most impact. Lebron is just not at the level of some other guys. He may have some pretty Eastern Conference Playoffs numbers but that isn't fooling anyone that doesn't want to get fooled by it.

    I mean the level of how you're downgrading every Lebron teammate out there and make it sound as if he was a one man team all these years and then whenever he loses it's because "his teammates let him down" is amazing. No other superstar had such a propaganda machine in their favor. Michael Jordan could have, but didn't really need one.
    Lebron's team is seeded #1 in the East: Lebron is so amazing.
    Lebron's #1 seeded teamm in the East fails to reach NBA Finals: His teammates suck.

    This was the rhetoric for his last 2 years in Cleveland before jumping off to Miami. Lebron was still considered by many to be "better than Kobe ever was" and Kobe's Lakers winning those rings shut those guys up a bit. Then he went to Miami, won a ring and suddently we started hearing GOAT conversation. This Lebron = GOATish has been a rhetoric since before his first game.

    He hasn't lived up to the hype. He has lived up to the hype of being a great player, but he was never going to be the greatest. You can see and feel that someone will be the greatest, you don't become that when you're in your 10th year in the league. That's insanity.

    Larry Bird said that Michael Jordan was going to be the greatest player of all time when people were telling Larry Bird that he himself was probably the greatest of all time back in the mid 80s! Magic Johnson even agreed. Nobody counted rings or playoff runs back then, you just knew that eventually he'd be universally accepted as the GOAT.

    I'll you give you a soccer example. In Greece the greatest player of all time is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasilis_Hatzipanagis

    Check his trophy cabinet. Actually never won the domestic championship. Don't think he even came close in 15 years and even played in the 2nd tier league (ie, his team was relegated and was forced to play in an inferior league in order to gain promotion back to the big boys' league). The same tier of league that Giannis Antetokounmpo was playing before moving to the NBA actually.

    If you also happen to see the standings of his team you'd say that he probably was a scrub. But he's universally accepted as the greatest Greek player of all time. There are some others who have won many domestic championships, featured in Champions League finals, won international trophies with the Greek NT. But no one will put any of these guys ahead of this Hatzipanagis character. Why? Because he was and still is the best.

    In basketball obviously it's a tad different with 5 players on instead of 11. A great player will make more difference. This is why guys like Barkley, Ewing, Karl Malone, Erving, Baylor and several others are very highly rated despite not having great team success. People could recognize surreal talent.

    Are you telling me now that Damian Lillard is going to be considered a scrub in NBA history if he lives out his career in Portland and never makes it past the 2nd round again and simply has the WCF sweep as his highest moment? His legacy will not be favorable, but no one in their right mind will claim that Lillard wasn't a top 3 PG in his time and that he could have won the ring if he had better teammates. Now obviously in such a scenario Lillard could never be considered part of the top 10 and that's exactly because NBA Finals is where legacies are built. And where they are also tarnished.

    Making the Finals is super important, but choking in them is obviously going to be magnified. Everyone's watching. Now seriously, how many people were even watching Cleveland in the first couple of rounds unless it was up to a game 7? You just cannot compare the exposure you get from the NBA Finals, whether it's good or bad, to any other level and as anyone with a basic knowledge of finance can tell you, when it's bad it's really bad! And not even the players care about the Regular Season anymore, so even that doesn't count.
    First Bolded: Who else? You said 2017 and 2018, so you're forgetting a pretty important guy named... Kevin Durant? Remember him? Yeah, the Warriors team with KD, Curry, Klay, Dray, and Iggy was the most talented team ever, with all in their primes (except Iggy). The Warriors had 3 All-Pro players on the team and added Kevin Durant. Before KD joined the last 3 MVPs were won by KD and Curry. You also complain about LeBron's Heat being so much more talented than the rest of the league and then are silent when it comes to these Warriors? Those Warriors were more talented in comparison to the league than any team except the 60's Celtics. Not only were they insanely talented, KD leaving neutered the best competition in the West.

    Second Bolded: Of course Michael Jordan didn't need one, his team was actually good without him. I wouldn't be talking about how little help LeBron had in 2007 if after LeBron left the Cavs had won 50 games and made it to the 2nd round...

    Third Bolded: Of course he did. And there were plenty of people saying LeBron could go down as the greatest before his Cleveland championship, they always said talentwise he could be, but he needed the titles. It's because the narrative is driven so much based on titles that they realized he'd never get his due unless he won titles. You even acknowledge this with Lillard by saying "NBA Finals are where legacies are built". Hence why people moved him up when he won rings.

    As for Lillard, yes his legacy is secured in that we know his floor. But if he walked out the next 3 years and won 3 straight championships, you don't think that would move him up the rankings?

  13. #3478
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Also, it's not just me and Romeo. I don't think we really agree with each other much, other than that Lebron is not a top 10 player. It's just highlights to a large number of you, which isn't more than 6 people by the way, because you feel that Lebron should be #2 or whatever. That's your view, it's well noticed. On the other hand, you keep attacking everyone who would suggest otherwise.

    And it's just PSD. And probably ESPN, SLAM and some other US media outlers such as Bleacher Report.

    I'm not denying that Lebron makes it to the top 10 lists of several outlets and people. That's obvious. He's the dominant player of our era, there's recency bias, there's those who regard him as a godlike figure, there's those who haven't watched anything else, there's those who are prisoners of the moment and forget that they said the same things about Kobe, Tmac, Iverson and even Vince Carter at some point and there's those few that actually do believe this based on their research and knowledge.

    But he's not really widely regarded as a top 5 player and definitely not a top 3 one. Most people I know still view both Magic and Larry as greater than him, even some of his fanboys though some do fall into the same fallacies about Bird and think that Lebron is basically just like Larry but stronger...

    I made a random search in Greek, trying to find whatever opinion from mainstream media or blogs that have something that's not copied from ESPN. Stumbled on this:
    https://siteblog.tuc.gr/prallidis/%C...D%CE%B2%CE%B1/

    This guy has #1 Michael Jordan, #2 Larry Bird, #3 Magic Johnson, #4 Kareem and #5 Bill Russell.
    The blog hasn't been updated since 2016 but I don't think Lebron would make his list.

    I'll give you that it's a ****** blog that no one ever read except probably us now, but it's some guy's opinion.

    An Italian page that likes to display top 10s have compiled this list:
    https://www.pescini.com/cms/pensieri...tori-di-basket

    #10 Karl Malone
    #9 Lebron James
    #8 Tim Duncan
    #7 Shaquille O'Neal
    #6 Wilt Chamberlain
    #5 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
    #4 Larry Bird
    #3 Bill Russell
    #2 Magic Johnson
    #1 Michael Jordan

    This was posted in December 2018 and they claim that their influence was mostly around statistics and basketball magazines.

    Another Italian one, this time a much older one from 2013.
    https://colgadosporelfutbol.com/it/N...-nella-storia/

    #1 Michael Jordan
    #2 Bill Russell
    #3 Kareem
    #4 Magic Johnson
    #5 Karl Malone
    #6 Shaquille O'Neal
    #7 Wilt Chamberlain
    #8 Moses Malone
    #9 Larry Bird
    #10 Hakeem Olajuwon

    No Lebron who had one ring at the time. And no Kobe either.

    I don't know what the fascination with Italians and Karl Malone is really

    There's a French site that has Lebron quite high. Also deals with Top 10s. This one's very recent, too.
    http://les10meilleurs.net/meilleurs-...-histoire-nba/

    But it starts with #10 Kevin Durant. All time. Should I really go on?
    Lebron is #3 behind Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson and they have 3 honorable mentions: Kobe, Baylor and... Karl Malone

    Another French one, from 2016, actually does have Lebron in their top 5. But he is listed behind both Larry Bird and Magic.
    https://www.insidebasket.com/actu/to...de-la-nba.html

    #1 Michael Jordan
    #2 Magic Johnson
    #3 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
    #4 Larry Bird
    #5 Lebron James
    #6 Kobe Bryant
    #7 Bill Russell
    #8 Wil Chamberlain
    #9 Shaquille O'Neal
    #10 Tim Duncan

    Now all those are just quite random to be frank. One of the most respectable sport news magazines in the world has the following list: https://www.lequipe.fr/Top/Basket/top100-joueurs-NBA/6/

    Their rankings are based on statistics and individual or team success according to their header. Also in 2016.

    #1 Michael Jordan
    #2 Kareem
    #3 Wilt Chamberlain
    #4 Bill Russell
    #5 Kobe Bryant
    #6 Tim Duncan
    #7 Magic Johnson
    #8 Lebron James
    #9 Shaquille O'Neal
    #10 Bob Cousy
    #11 Larry Bird
    #12 Karl Malone
    #13 Jerry West
    #14 Hakeem Olajuwon
    #15 John Havlicek

    list goes on to 100.


    I haven't denied that Lebron's career is impressive with great stats and a longevity that's to be jealous of. But that's not what makes a player GOAT.
    In this mini search I did I saw someone comment that Lebron winning against the Warriors was an instant #2 lock. At the same time he had Larry Bird 9th because he... didn't shoot many threes and got injured a lot and Magic Johnson 6th instead of 2nd because he terminated his career early as that guy says.

    I mean, as long as the parameters are fluid, you can rank (assuming you need to) in whatever fashion you wish.

    You say you rate Lebron's peak. I think Lebron's peak is not that great. It's just that it lasted too long, which is unprecedented. That's a big legacy boost for sure, but it doesn't make you a better basketball player. It just makes you more valuable to your organization.

    If the question for filling a Top 10 is: tell me the best 10 players you'd pick in order to play one full season, assuming no injuries, then that's where I use peak as an evaluation. And Lebron isn't even in my top 20 possibly as I even will prefer guys like Tracy McGrady and Allen Iverson who had the most impressive peak I've seen since Michael Jordan.
    If I have to stretch it over 5 years, then of course Lebron goes higher and could reach the top 10. Still not picking him over Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Or Karl Malone for that matter

    If you ask me if I have to pick a player for 15 seasons to have in a franchise, then obviously Lebron is one of the top 5-10 choices. But that's not how you measure elite, all time, greatness. That's just a small parameter of a great feat that depends on too many variables that are unrelated to the game of basketball. The only added value is that it enables someone to keep playing basketball at a high level. That itself is a good thing but it doesn't really differentiate. Otherwise the US media would be treating Karl Malone as those French and Italian rankings I posted where he's top 5-15 of all time. Longevity, high peak and good stats all around.

    If I were reading a spreadsheet and I had to decide without even knowing what this sport was about, Lebron would be in my top 3. But the problem is that I know that this is about basketball and every expert out there I know (and given that I've been part of this sport professionally, it's not a small number) is telling me to partially ignore that and just see what goes on on the court. The stats are for coaches and scouts to. Role players and opposition. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If you start thinking that statistics have the answers to basketball and its legends, then you obviously will start viewing anyone who's sensible enough to not be dragged into that as a "hater".


    So wait... you've been arguing this entire time that LeBron is not even Top 10 and then you post 5 lists, 4 of which have LeBron in the Top 10 (with the only one not being from 2013). What's even funnier is 2 of the lists have LeBron top 5


    So apparently, your opinion is the one NOBODY agrees with, because even people in Europe aren't stupid enough to have LeBron outside their Top 10 after 2016. So what does that tell you? That even your European guys who supposedly know the game better than Americans all say he's top 10?
    Last edited by valade16; 02-20-2020 at 09:45 AM.

  14. #3479
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    Where did I say that these guys know basketball better? I hardly ever saw these guys before, it's just a different perspective that I added to the conversation. Nothing to do with my view, yours or anyone else's. Only Equipe is credible but not so much for basketball which is something they caught on in the mid 2000s with so many French nationals in the league.

    As for Durant, no. I was talking about Lebron's winning title in 2016 when they also broke the RS record.The only guy I omitted was Draymond Green, another overrated player because he can play on both ends. Something that I'll repeat was unnatural not to be in the 80s and 90s. He's not a top 100 player of all time either. He was important to the Warriors which is also why they couldn't clinch it in 5 games but instead choked.
    The 2017 and 2018 teams were more talented than the 2016 team of course mostly due to the Durant factor.

    If you want to have a proper methodology, sorry, I cannot give it to you due to lack of time. But a good start would be, aside from overall context, different league structure over time, different rules, different attitude of players and mentality of teams, aside from all that and that's okay since you only like simplicity and some numbers attached to it and you are incapable of finding the specific stats I requested from you..m Just do the following:

    Pick a Conference or someone's path to the final and consider if they faced:
    1) A top 10 player in the league that season
    2a) A top 50 player in history by that point
    2b) A top 100 player in history
    while having:
    3) A top 10 player in the league that season in his team
    4) A top 100 player in history in his team

    Do this with any player you can think of. And obviously the player has to be in his prime, you cannot claim the 98 Rockets were a legendary team, it was just a team with old legends way past their prime.
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 02-20-2020 at 10:55 AM.

  15. #3480
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Donít ignore Lebron averaging about 36/11/9 and basically having a better finals series than anybody ever.

    Not to mention he lead the entire series in pts/reb/asst/stl/blcks on both teams, something that has never been done before, all while beating the regular season wins record holding team. It was the epitome of a GOAT performance lmfao. There is nothing else that can be f-ing done at that point.
    This
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 02-20-2020 at 11:26 AM.

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