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  1. #5671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Kobe played in a system that was based on passing and ball movement. LBJ has never effectively played in a system of any kind. It's a myth that LBJ makes all of his teammates better. He makes spot up shooters who are generally not very effective players better. He does not make his star teammates better and they usually perform worst than without him and I believe there is an ESPN article out there on this showing the data to back it up (this article only gets to the tip of the iceberg though).
    What star player performed better with Kobe. And why would I hold it against a guy for being stuck with bad coaches and say he canít play in a system.

    If a star player join another star player it affects the no of shots your going to take. The reason GSW might be a little different is because they push the pace and take lots of shots which allows them to get their touches it also helps they were 3 very good shooters. Love and bosh took a hit 1 Wade was also in the mix, as for love he was best served as a shooter with his lack of defense. Kyrie was able to be Kyrie. If you replaced Kobe with KD on GSW klay and Curry would become spot shooters just the same. Kobe would not let Curry be Curry. Who would you want taking the last shots Curry or Kobe?
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-28-2020 at 01:01 PM.

  2. #5672
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    What star player performed better with Kobe. And why would I hold it against a guy for being stuck with bad coaches and say he canít play in a system.

    If a star player join another star player it affects the no of shots your going to take. The reason GSW might be a little different is because they push the pace and take lots of shots which allows them to get their touches it also helps they were 3 very good shooters. Love and bosh took a hit 1 Wade was also in the mix, as for love he was best served as a shooter with his lack of defense. Kyrie was able to be Kyrie. If you replaced Kobe with KD on GSW klay and Curry would become spot shooters just the same. Kobe would not let Curry be Curry. Who would you want taking the last shots Curry or Kobe?
    Not that kobe necessarily deserves credit for it, but it is worth noting that Shaq had his best years with kobe. Pau's level of play also didn't really drop off when he teamed with kobe, despite going from a situation where he was the clear #1 to being the clear #2. Unfortunately for kobe, those were the only star players he played with during his career so we can't reference other cases. In both instances though, their play didnt seem to be negatively impacted by playing alongside kobe.

  3. #5673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Not that kobe necessarily deserves credit for it, but it is worth noting that Shaq had his best years with kobe. Pau's level of play also didn't really drop off when he teamed with kobe, despite going from a situation where he was the clear #1 to being the clear #2. Unfortunately for kobe, those were the only star players he played with during his career so we can't reference other cases. In both instances though, their play didnt seem to be negatively impacted by playing alongside kobe.
    We are talking about a player with two totally different skill set that played on different part of the floor. And yes Shaq was still growing as a player and had nothing to do with Kobe making him better. Pau did not drop had to do with the system and phill having Pau make plays from the post. Pau skill set allowed that. Again I expect Kobe to work well with a big any other position would have took a big hit.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-28-2020 at 01:36 PM.

  4. #5674
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    In Miami it was more political. It was Wades original team but Lebron was the biggest star and best talent. Bosh took the biggest sacrifice. If Wade was not in the picture Bosh average would have gone up or roughly the same. Lebron did not take more shots during that time. That was the most efficient time in his career. Not only did he shoot a higher percentage but his ppg also went down.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-28-2020 at 01:41 PM.

  5. #5675
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    Kyrie was a young player trending upwards playing with Lebron and did not stunt his growth. Kyie was able to be himself. Kyrie was basically a rookie player.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-28-2020 at 01:44 PM.

  6. #5676
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Kyrie was a young player trending upwards playing with Lebron and did not stunt his growth. Kyie was able to be himself. Kyrie was basically a rookie player.
    Kyrie was 3 years in the league already, twice an all star and actually the All star game MVP a few months before Lebron joined him. USA Basketball also named him Athlete of the Year (Lebron won this in 2012 only). It doesn't mean much, but it's something.

    And it definitely means that he wasn't "basically a rookie player".

  7. #5677
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Kyrie was 3 years in the league already, twice an all star and actually the All star game MVP a few months before Lebron joined him. USA Basketball also named him Athlete of the Year (Lebron won this in 2012 only). It doesn't mean much, but it's something.

    And it definitely means that he wasn't "basically a rookie player".
    Ok I can live with that. Kind of like a playoff inexperienced Donavan Mitchell. Thing is he did not make him regress or turn him to a role player

  8. #5678
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    Anthony Davis is also along the lines of his career averages.

  9. #5679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It's not about shutting the ball, it's about how often LBJ has the ball in his hands and is dominating the offense. Just from a fit perspective, LBJ and Shaq are not a great fit. Shaq would likely clog the paint some and make it harder for LBJ to get to the rim and Shaq can't spread the floor. Bosh was actually an excellent fit for playing with LBJ because he could spread the floor and take the defense away from the rim and was a very good catch and shoot option from the mid range. LBJ would be most effective with someone like Bosh or dirk as a big man or maybe AD or KG or even Duncan because they had far greater ability to spread the floor than Shaq. With Shaq, there's really no reason to guard him beyond 10 feet from the basket.
    What this is something we can agree on. Base on how each career played out I think Kobe would fit better with Shaq. I said from long Lebron cannot replace Kobe at shooting guard. He would be a worst version of Kobe. The only way Lebron could of fit better if he shot the ball better than he did when younger.

    Having said that he did improve as a shooter and could have been something Phil would have told him to work on and maybe he shoot better sooner. Even with that I would lean with Kobe if I have Shaq. Kobe overall would still be the better guard.

    Both Lebron and Shaq would bring down the teams overall free throw shooting.

    See my bar donít lean one direction.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-28-2020 at 02:40 PM.

  10. #5680
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    Kyrie was definitely considered a talented player when LeBron went back to Cleveland, he was a rising star.

    Similarly, while Bosh wasnít a Top 10 player, he was a Top 15 player and he was very good. I also donít think Bosh gets enough credit for changing his role and skill set to accommodate LeBron and Wade.

  11. #5681
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    But the idea that just because you were on a team as a top player first means itís your team is ridiculous. There are countless examples of the new guy coming in and it being the best player on the team:

    The Celtics had Cousy but Russell became the best player when he arrived
    The 76ers had Dr. J but Moses became the best player when he arrived
    The Lakers had Kareem but Magic became the best player when he arrived
    The Spurs had Robinson but Duncan became the best player when he arrived
    The Warriors had Curry but KD became their best player when he arrived


    The idea that LeBron wasnít clearly the top player or focal point for the Heat simply because Wade was there first is ridiculous.

  12. #5682
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    But the idea that just because you were on a team as a top player first means itís your team is ridiculous. There are countless examples of the new guy coming in and it being the best player on the team:

    The Celtics had Cousy but Russell became the best player when he arrived
    The 76ers had Dr. J but Moses became the best player when he arrived
    The Lakers had Kareem but Magic became the best player when he arrived
    The Spurs had Robinson but Duncan became the best player when he arrived
    The Warriors had Curry but KD became their best player when he arrived


    The idea that LeBron wasnít clearly the top player or focal point for the Heat simply because Wade was there first is ridiculous.
    Not according to their opponents defenses...

  13. #5683
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Anthony Davis is also along the lines of his career averages.
    Yeah, I agree. AD has been playing well alongside LBJ. Note however that AD can stretch the defense very well and is excellent at running the floor so it's a really good fit.

  14. #5684
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    So you guys think LBJ coming straight out of HS with the self named nickname "King James" and already being called "The Chosen One" would've gotten along with Shaq who gave himself the nickname "Superman"? How would this so called there can only be 1 alpha thing worked out? If they would've won who would've gotten the credit? You guys honestly think that either would've been content being looked at as Robin? You won cause you were on Shaqs team or you won cause you were on LBJs team?
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Not just that, but most of these posters don't get that LBJ plays in an LBJ system where everything is based on LBJ handling the ball and creating for himself or others. This would not work well with shaq and shaq would not stand for this (and rightfully so). Alongside Shaq, LBJ would unlikely be able to go into his LBJ-style of play, at least not while shaq was in the game.
    Still waiting for a single reply from the pro LBJ posters. Some were quick to jump in when I said if Kobe started off his career in Cleveland he would've averaged 32 PPG. Piled up stats. They said he would've demanded a trade right away.

    Flip the script and if LBJ were to have played with Shaq and they won a couple of championships, was LBJ not gonna get the credit for them?

  15. #5685
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Still waiting for a single reply from the pro LBJ posters. Some were quick to jump in when I said if Kobe started off his career in Cleveland he would've averaged 32 PPG. Piled up stats. They said he would've demanded a trade right away.

    Flip the script and if LBJ were to have played with Shaq and they won a couple of championships, was LBJ not gonna get the credit for them?
    Yep, a lot of these dudes are super biased on here and basically get away with it because it's a pro LBJ thread.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-28-2020 at 04:19 PM.

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