Welcoming the most compelling arguments in the NBA GOAT debate

[Lionel20]

Summary

• Chamberlain (9), Jabbar (9), Jordan (7), and James (10) are the only players in NBA/ABA history to finish with at least 7 MVP seasons (MVP seasons = single season combination regular and post season performance determined by value shares metric)
  
• Jordan and James are the only players in NBA/ABA history to be the top performers in the Finals "six" times, and the entire postseason "seven" times
  
• Michael Jordan from 1988 - 1993 registered the highest peak performance in NBA/ABA history according the value shares

• Jordan played in 37 playoff series in his NBA career. He was the top performer in 100% of each series dating back to 1985. James, in forty-five career playoff series is 2nd among qualifiers finishing as the top performer in 78% of the playoff series he participated in.
  
• Jordan's peak value and unsurpassed consistency in the playoffs are enough to edge out James' longevity so far in their careers, if you as I do, place emphasis on the Finals and Postseason performance

My blog link goes into some depth about my conclusion.

https://matthewmurphy1.wordpress.com/2020/06/22/417/

[More-Than-Most]

I have no issues with any of this... things that never get taken into account though is the fact Jordan couldnt win without a super team..

- Jordan without pippen

Regular Season: 154-170 (47.5%)
Playoffs: 1-9 (10%)

Pippens record without Jordan:

Regular Season: 295-185 (61.4%)
Playoffs: 19-21 (47.5%)


-Jordan never faced anyone in the finals as good as the spurs/warriors

[naps]

The weird thing about people holding LeBron's finals losses against him is how getting to finals is worse than getting bounced in the first or second round. It's as if he was not making it to the finals those years and getting bounced early it would be better for legacy in their minds. This honestly blows my mind. So if Jordan made it to the finals in first 6 years of his career and lost, it would hurt his legacy even though he ended up with 6 rings eventually? In what planet this argument makes sense Stephen A Smith?

[OceanSpray]

Playoff totals in 6 final runs:

Jordan-
Points: 3776
Rebounds: 719
Assists: 622
Steals: 218
Blocks: 91


Pippen-
Points: 2200
Rebounds: 908
Assists: 642
Steals: 244
Blocks: 111

Pippen leads Jordan in total rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and was the better perimeter defender. Please tell me again why we aren't giving Pippen more credit but Jordan fanboys claim Jordan was some God.

[blams]

Playoff totals in 6 final runs:

Jordan-
Points: 3776
Rebounds: 719
Assists: 622
Steals: 218
Blocks: 91


Pippen-
Points: 2200
Rebounds: 908
Assists: 642
Steals: 244
Blocks: 111

Pippen leads Jordan in total rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and was the better perimeter defender. Please tell me again why we aren't giving Pippen more credit but Jordan fanboys claim Jordan was some God.

Exactly. Jordan was amazing but not beyond debate.

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[R. Johnson#3]

I have no issues with any of this... things that never get taken into account though is the fact Jordan couldnt win without a super team..

- Jordan without pippen

Regular Season: 154-170 (47.5%)
Playoffs: 1-9 (10%)

Pippens record without Jordan:

Regular Season: 295-185 (61.4%)
Playoffs: 19-21 (47.5%)


-Jordan never faced anyone in the finals as good as the spurs/warriors

That’s one way of looking at it. There’s also the fact that he had to figure out how to get by 2 of the greatest teams ever assembled (Celtics and Pistons) all while he was still in his early 20’s on a team that was nowhere near those teams levels.

LeBron is ultimately going to pass Jordan and it’ll be because of his longevity. One thing that never gets talked about is how Jordan took a 1 year and 3 year break. LeBron plays every year and most likely will until he’s 40.

[OceanSpray]

That’s one way of looking at it. There’s also the fact that he had to figure out how to get by 2 of the greatest teams ever assembled (Celtics and Pistons) all while he was still in his early 20’s on a team that was nowhere near those teams levels.

LeBron is ultimately going to pass Jordan and it’ll be because of his longevity. One thing that never gets talked about is how Jordan took a 1 year and 3 year break. LeBron plays every year and most likely will until he’s 40.

His longevity is one for sports history. He's never missed a damn playoffs game. That's just mind-blowing.

[Lionel20]

Playoff totals in 6 final runs:

Jordan-
Points: 3776
Rebounds: 719
Assists: 622
Steals: 218
Blocks: 91


Pippen-
Points: 2200
Rebounds: 908
Assists: 642
Steals: 244
Blocks: 111

Pippen leads Jordan in total rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and was the better perimeter defender. Please tell me again why we aren't giving Pippen more credit but Jordan fanboys claim Jordan was some God.

I think a lot of people overhype that 55-win Jordan-less Bulls team from 1993-94. If you take a closer look at the point differentials, the pythagorean win expectation was set for 49 or 50 wins. Toni Kukoc alone hit three or four buzzer-beaters during the regular season. Without Kukoc, the Bulls likely lose to the Knicks in five games in 1994. He was not present on the 1992-93 team with Jordan.

In the 24 NBA Finals games won by Jordan and Pippen, Jordan was the most valuable player in 23 of them. I argue for Pippen in Game 5 vs Lakers although Jordan had a great close-out game as well. Jordan shut down Magic in the 4th qtr in the 1991 Finals.

LeBron James has won 22 NBA Finals games in his career. James was the most valuable player according to value shares in 19 of them (Wade G3 vs Mavs, Irving G5 vs 2016-17 Warriors, Anthony Davis G1 vs Heat).

It just seems Bron had a little more help during his Finals run although his Finals opponents were tougher.

[blams]

I think a lot of people overhype that 55-win Jordan-less Bulls team from 1993-94. If you take a closer look at the point differentials, the pythagorean win expectation was set for 49 or 50 wins. Toni Kukoc alone hit three or four buzzer-beaters during the regular season. Without Kukoc, the Bulls likely lose to the Knicks in five games in 1994. He was not present on the 1992-93 team with Jordan.

In the 24 NBA Finals games won by Jordan and Pippen, Jordan was the most valuable player in 23 of them. I argue for Pippen in Game 5 vs Lakers although Jordan had a great close-out game as well. Jordan shut down Magic in the 4th qtr in the 1991 Finals.

LeBron James has won 22 NBA Finals games in his career. James was the most valuable player according to value shares in 19 of them (Wade G3 vs Mavs, Irving G5 vs 2016-17 Warriors, Anthony Davis G1 vs Heat).

It just seems Bron had a little more help during his Finals run although his Finals opponents were tougher.

It seems that way but it isn't true-

MJ had a revolutionary offense, was able to go against man 2 man defense, had Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Harper, Kerr, Paxson, Grant, Armstrong, deep benches, and the best coach in nba history.

All against sub part finals opponents and a strong east.


I shouldn't have to be seemingly discrediting Jordan, he doesn't deserve it. But there is a debate to be had without a doubt at this point.

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[Bostonjorge]

https://youtu.be/VfKTJqFa3go

LeBron is going after his damn respect.

Jordan might not be the “Jordan of Basketball” once James takes that damn respect again next season.

[ewing]

It seems that way but it isn't true-

MJ had a revolutionary offense, was able to go against man 2 man defense, had Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Harper, Kerr, Paxson, Grant, Armstrong, deep benches, and the best coach in nba history.

All against sub part finals opponents and a strong east.


I shouldn't have to be seemingly discrediting Jordan, he doesn't deserve it. But there is a debate to be had without a doubt at this point.

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You forgot about Stacy King and JoJo English


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[ewing]

https://youtu.be/VfKTJqFa3go

LeBron is going after his damn respect.

Jordan might not be the “Jordan of Basketball” once James takes that damn respect again next season.

What a loser


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[bledrules]

I have no issues with any of this... things that never get taken into account though is the fact Jordan couldnt win without a super team..

- Jordan without pippen

Regular Season: 154-170 (47.5%)
Playoffs: 1-9 (10%)

Pippens record without Jordan:

Regular Season: 295-185 (61.4%)
Playoffs: 19-21 (47.5%)


-Jordan never faced anyone in the finals as good as the spurs/warriors

MJ had Pippen,Cartwright,Grant and Cartwright as his fellow starters and won 3 rings with these guys but you clueless Bronsexuals call it a superteam.
This is almost as ridiculous as your belief that Rodgers is the GOAT

[blams]

MJ had Pippen,Cartwright,Grant and Cartwright as his fellow starters and won 3 rings with these guys but you clueless Bronsexuals call it a superteam.
This is almost as ridiculous as your belief that Rodgers is the GOAT

It was an amazing, deep team. 2nd 3peat was more stacked but the first was as well. Also had to face man to man defense, AND had the best coach of all time.

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[Iggie]

LeBron is becoming unbearable to listen to anymore. I wish he’d keep his damn mouth shut sometimes. It’s like he makes **** up to motivate himself