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  1. #7606
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Because he shot more. Even if you thought it was important to ensure the FTs were equal, why not use FTA, or Free Throw Rate? Why Usage? It still makes no sense.
    Well you were asking me why I brought it up and that's the reason why. Why ignore the rest of the post? you know that I was right

  2. #7607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well you were asking me why I brought it up and that's the reason why. Why ignore the rest of the post? you know that I was right
    Well it was a bad reason why.

    As for the rest of your post, it doesn't tell us much that Magic Johnson's PER is ahead of Gervin's because Magic also scores a lot. But Magic is actually an excellent example of how as he passed less and scored more his PER went up:

    84-86 18.2 PPG, 12.7 APG (23.2 PER)
    88-90 21.5 PPG, 12.1 APG (25.6 PER)

    It's worth pointing out Magic's highest year in APG was a 22.6 PER and his highest year scoring was 27.0 PER.

    So when looking at just Magic Johnson, we see that when he scored more his PER went up compared to when he passed more.

  3. #7608
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well it was a bad reason why.

    As for the rest of your post, it doesn't tell us much that Magic Johnson's PER is ahead of Gervin's because Magic also scores a lot. But Magic is actually an excellent example of how as he passed less and scored more his PER went up:

    84-86 18.2 PPG, 12.7 APG (23.2 PER)
    88-90 21.5 PPG, 12.1 APG (25.6 PER)

    It's worth pointing out Magic's highest year in APG was a 22.6 PER and his highest year scoring was 27.0 PER.

    So when looking at just Magic Johnson, we see that when he scored more his PER went up compared to when he passed more.
    Cmon man, you know that's not an equal tradeoff. His assists decreased by about half an assist, which amounts to about a point in production, but his scoring went up by almost 3.5 pts. In 1987 when he had his highest PER, he also happened to lead the league in assists. I don't think I would put magic in the category of a high volume scorer though, even though he did score a lot cause he didnt really attempt too many fg per game

  4. #7609
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    Also, to be clear, my point doesn't need to preclude guys who score a decent amount, because it's possible to score a lot of points by simply taking really high percentage shots and making them and not shooting otherwise. It's simply that the best way to examine this is to directly isolate scoring and assists (which was why I used that hypothetical of one guy shooting going 10/20 and scoring 20 pts versus another guy having 10 assists and 0 pts and 0 fga attempts)

  5. #7610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Also, to be clear, my point doesn't need to preclude guys who score a decent amount, because it's possible to score a lot of points by simply taking really high percentage shots and making them and not shooting otherwise. It's simply that the best way to examine this is to directly isolate scoring and assists (which was why I used that hypothetical of one guy shooting going 10/20 and scoring 20 pts versus another guy having 10 assists and 0 pts and 0 fga attempts)
    Your entire point was you should purposefully avoid the really high percentage shots because even as often as you'd make them, passing it would increase your PER more than taking the shot would. It was a bad premise.

  6. #7611
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Your entire point was you should purposefully avoid the really high percentage shots because even as often as you'd make them, passing it would increase your PER more than taking the shot would. It was a bad premise.
    Noooo, it absolutely was not! Go back and read it. I said that you should avoid all but really high percentage shots and that you should only take completely wide open shots or shots at the rim, even if other shots are the better option than one of your teammates taking that shot. You even brought up the Barkley example as a case where he did just that and there was some other statistic that accounted for this.

  7. #7612
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    lebron about to win his 4th title and the gap that is already a gap would be a distance that can not be measured..... lebron just closed out a monster team with a performance kobe would only dream of.



    Jordan/Lebron
































    everyone else.

  8. #7613
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    lebron about to win his 4th title and the gap that is already a gap would be a distance that can not be measured..... lebron just closed out a monster team with a performance kobe would only dream of.



    Jordan/Lebron
































    everyone else.
    Lol monster team?? They were hardly a monster team. They're a very good team, but that's where it ends. No need to embellish. No one in the laker forum is saying "what a monster team we just beat". You're such a troll dude.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 09-27-2020 at 01:05 AM.

  9. #7614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Lol monster team?? They were hardly a monster team. They're a very good team, but that's where it ends. No need to embellish. No one in the laker forum is saying "what a monster team we just beat". You're such a troll dude.
    blazer/rockets/nuggets who came back against 2 teams 1-3 one in which are the clippers and could easily have been up on your team. It has been a hard *** road bruh keep trying to down play while you pray your team loses

  10. #7615
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    blazer/rockets/nuggets who came back against 2 teams 1-3 one in which are the clippers and could easily have been up on your team. It has been a hard *** road bruh keep trying to down play while you pray your team loses
    Cmon dude, there's no need to be a troll. You know exactly who I'm rooting for and you know it's the lakers. I've also routinely given LBJ a ton of credit throughout the entire playoffs and during the games (including last night) . I've also not once given LBJ a hard time about times when he's gone cold in these playoffs. As a matter of fact, some posters have been hard on him during some of those times and I've continually downplayed it and said it's nothing to worry about and expressed support for LBJ. IKH and Blams can vouch for this as they've been on the laker forum regularly and aren't being trolls like you.

    The nuggets were a very good team, but there's no need to call them a monster team. They had a great run, but no one was worried about them. As far as I can tell, fans were much more worried about Portland and Houston. Again, Denver is an excellent team, but they're a few years away from being a serious contender. Maybe once they develop more experience and their young guys get better and mature (1-3 years). It's a great accomplishment for the lakers and LBJ and AD, but there's no need to make stuff up to embellish it like this. There's also no need to be a troll man.

  11. #7616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    What do you mean? LBJ definitely dominates the ball. He's often among the league leaders in guys who have the ball and most of the guys who have the ball a comparable amount of time are full time pgs. LBJ does a lot of ball handling but he's not a full time pg so I don't think it's debatable that LBJ does dominate the ball a lot.

    You're right about a knock on LBJ being that he's too nice of a guy. I never really held that against him. A bigger knock for me is that he's not super skilled and you do start to see it come to light when teams take away the drive but he has been able to over come that.

    I don't think that's why players respected kobe. I think a lot of what gets lost in here and one of the points I've been trying to make is that performance is not a good indicator of impact (and a critical limitation of any statistic-based assessment) because in sports defenses guard against what a player is capable of doing more so than they do against what a player actually does. To tie this back to the first sentence here, players respected kobe because they knew what he was capable of and it required throwing everything the defense had at him to stop him from going for a massive night on a nightly basis. If defenses didn't bring their absolute A game, with the best defenders and the best game planning they could muster, kobe would drop 60-plus without batting an eye and would do so on highly efficient shooting. This is what defenses were guarding against on a nightly basis and they had to fight tooth and nail to keep it from happening and this is what other teams were constantly in fear of. There is that story where boston was up by 30 something with about 4 minutes to go in game 6 of the finals in 08 and doc rivers was still coaching like it was a 2 pt ball game and his assistants were telling him to pull the starters and doc was going irate because he was afraid that kobe would somehow do something miraculous. Eventually doc realized how insane that was, but that demonstrates just how other teams prepared for him. That sort of thing has a major impact on the game and that's what defenses were going up against every night for the massive majority of his 20 year career.

    To demonstrate this point on a more basic level imagine we go play on a playground. There's one guy who can't shoot and it's clear right away from his form and another guy who has a great form. Regardless of how those players are performing, defenses won't prepare for the guy who can't shoot even if he's making them, whereas they will fight very hard to keep the guy who can shoot from getting shots even if he's missing. The reason is that what you are guarding is what the offensive player is capable of doing. It was Kobe's ability that players respected (outside of his competitiveness and intensity).

    That was why players respected him because of what he was capable
    Lebron proves once again its a narritive. Lebron is not trying to be MJ, Kobe or Magic but people think because hes not like them that means hes not as good and in some cases better. He is more than a shooting guard which hes not and he was more athletic than Magic again which hes not. The guy does it all. Kobe was not like that.

    Lebron dont get those stats because he dominates the ball more than any other star. It all falls in line with his capabilities. ex If i ask A player to run a team not all will be able to do so. Also some players even if they can they can't find the balance of when to pass and shoot. They already made up in thier minds before the game starts i am going to pass this guarter then i am going to shoot the next. So they come down and shoot 7 consecutive shots.

    think of it this way if you go to the park and the guy is not a great shooter but he is a beast at going to the rim. Your plan is the keep him out the paint so you slack off for him to shoot more drive less. In doing so the next best player or the team in general have to help that player. If they cant then that team was not going to win reguardless. This can be seen when NBA players dont have adequate help. Thing is the player in the park can keep shooting eventually some will go in or he may even catch fire and sink 4 5 in a row but will the other guys be happy.

    This series alone display how he can beat you in so many ways and its not always about the number of points.
    From playing point all the way to center. This is not saying he will be the best center or guard. But from defense, controling the game, creating plays for others, creating for himself, rebounding, blocks, post plays, fade shots, step back, drive kick, etc.
    I guess what im saying what if this player just focus on leading the leage in points? the capability was there but was not the goal.

    Win or lose changes everything in the media. if you win man he is great hes better than MJ if you lose dude you shoot to much hey you pass to much. These are emotional driven and base on the outcome stats are not they show a pattern.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-27-2020 at 03:15 PM.

  12. #7617
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    2011 Finals (Heat)
    2012 Finals (Heat)
    2013 Finals (Heat)
    2014 Finals (Heat)
    2015 Finals (Cavs)
    2016 Finals (Cavs)
    2017 Finals (Cavs)
    2018 Finals (Cavs)
    2019 DNQ
    2020 Finals (Lakers)

    Yo, that is just bonkers to see. It has been this man's decade. Some people's prime is just much longer than others

  13. #7618
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    2011 Finals (Heat)
    2012 Finals (Heat)
    2013 Finals (Heat)
    2014 Finals (Heat)
    2015 Finals (Cavs)
    2016 Finals (Cavs)
    2017 Finals (Cavs)
    2018 Finals (Cavs)
    2019 DNQ
    2020 Finals (Lakers)

    Yo, that is just bonkers to see. It has been this man's decade. Some people's prime is just much longer than others
    Yep, LBJ has admittedly had an incredibly long run. Kareem is the only other player I can think of who has had this long of a run as an elite player.

  14. #7619
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    Lebron could have easlily stop passing to green but he continue to pass because he knows his capabilty and trust the guys on the floor. Had they lost then one would say he should not do that. He should have taken those shots himself and he has no bite he have no hart it etc.

    Another player would demand the ball and shoot if its made will go down a hero if not i tried. i respect those difficult shots. Murray made some nice looking difficult shot then hes channeling MJ and earn respect?
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-27-2020 at 03:06 PM.

  15. #7620
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    2011 Finals (Heat)
    2012 Finals (Heat)
    2013 Finals (Heat)
    2014 Finals (Heat)
    2015 Finals (Cavs)
    2016 Finals (Cavs)
    2017 Finals (Cavs)
    2018 Finals (Cavs)
    2019 DNQ
    2020 Finals (Lakers)

    Yo, that is just bonkers to see. It has been this man's decade. Some people's prime is just much longer than others
    Hey its easy. It was in the East he cant do that out west. I have to see it those stats are inflated. Ok now he finnally learn how to play the right way.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-27-2020 at 01:38 PM.

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