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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    I'm guessing year 3 would be a player opt out? What happens if he regresses a bit like Chris Sale at the age of 32 and is seemingly no longer worth his contract in year 3?
    Yeah, he would have an opt out in years three and four. I'm.guessing if that situation happens, he's doesn't opt out and the remainder of the deal is horrible which is partly why I don't see them going near the likes of Cole. They should be able to get some like Odorizzi, Gibson or Wheeler on shorter term

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Yeah I read that as I was posting it and didn't realize it was 230. I'd still be okay with paying him that though. Realistically, I don't see them shelling out that kind of money... Yet. I was just pointing out how 3 key signings this off-season could actually put us in contention for the post season. We're not that far off.
    I get that they have a lot of money to play with but I don't want them to just throw a bunch at one guy. I would hope for 2 SP an OF (preferably a capable CF) a 1B/DH and a BP arm or two if there's at all possible and in that order.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tg11 View Post
    Okay but even so overall they have a better team than Toronto does in every way...pitching and lineups aside but I am sure they will have someone come in soon enough
    Yes, but they've spent stupidly is my point. So much so, that they may actually have to let JD Martinez walk for a comp pick and trade away Mookie Betts. Sure they got a ring last year, but it's not a model for sustainable success.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Do you think aces sign deals that don't heavily favour them? If you want an ace then you have to pay him.
    No crap. Don't understand how this answers my question either.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Yeah, he would have an opt out in years three and four. I'm.guessing if that situation happens, he's doesn't opt out and the remainder of the deal is horrible which is partly why I don't see them going near the likes of Cole. They should be able to get some like Odorizzi, Gibson or Wheeler on shorter term
    Bingo. And I think Gibson is the most likely of the 3 to sign with the Jays. Roark might also be someone on the Jays radar.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    I get that they have a lot of money to play with but I don't want them to just throw a bunch at one guy. I would hope for 2 SP an OF (preferably a capable CF) a 1B/DH and a BP arm or two if there's at all possible and in that order.
    Iíd have no objection to them paying any one of Cole, MadBum or Strasburg as opposed to signing 2 of the lower tier arms. I also wouldnít have a problem with them signing 2 of the lower tier arms as well. Just as long as they add some pitching with the intent of keeping them around for when weíre ready to compete.

    Itís becoming more and more clear that in order to get a capable CF itíll have to be a prospect or Starling Marte. Iíd actually be more ecstatic if they went and got Marte because he could more than likely be had without giving up any of Pearson, Groshans, Manoah, SWR or Kloff. I pitched the idea of them signing Castellanos and just forcing Grichuk to play CF. Honestly, the more I think of that the more I like it. You know exactly what youíre getting from Castellanos with the bat and itís good enough to excuse his crap defence in RF. He could also be a player that frequents the DH spot as well.

    I think the BP can have one more year of searching from within to fill the roles. We wonít be aiming for the post season next year so I donít see any real need to spend on the BP. Give guys like Law, Waguespack, Zeuch, Pannone and even SRF a shot to prove they have some worth to the team. I donít want to trade Giles.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    No crap. Don't understand how this answers my question either.
    Youíre talking about the what ifís with Cole. You have to take risks when signing an ace and thatís just the way it is. You need an ace or even a few of them if you want to contend for the World Series eventually too.

    Scherzer has a full NTC that was activated in his deal this season. The remaining 3 years on the deal heís making 30 mil a year as opposed to the earlier years when he was making anywhere between 10 and 15.

    Strasburg has an opt out after this year and next.

    Greinke just flat out makes over 30 mil a year in his deal.

    Verlander got a full NTC the second he signed his extension.

    If you want an ace youíre going to have to make the deal favourable for them and more than likely the deal will come back to bite you at some point. You also 100% need an ace to win in the MLB.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Youíre talking about the what ifís with Cole. You have to take risks when signing an ace and thatís just the way it is. You need an ace or even a few of them if you want to contend for the World Series eventually too.

    Scherzer has a full NTC that was activated in his deal this season. The remaining 3 years on the deal heís making 30 mil a year as opposed to the earlier years when he was making anywhere between 10 and 15.

    Strasburg has an opt out after this year and next.

    Greinke just flat out makes over 30 mil a year in his deal.

    Verlander got a full NTC the second he signed his extension.

    If you want an ace youíre going to have to make the deal favourable for them and more than likely the deal will come back to bite you at some point. You also 100% need an ace to win in the MLB.
    I'm playing devil's advocate here because we hear about Tulo's contract handcuffing the Jays. Wouldn't it be ironic that the same thing we complain about with Tulo's contract being done again with Cole (if he gets injured)? These guys preach sustainable winners and a move like this, er I should say a risky move like this most likely doesn't happen under this FO. Yes I know Tulo had a history of injuries, but did anyone really see him being this injured? We really didn't see Sale's injury either - guy rarely hit the DL.

    All I'm saying here is I agree you need to overpay for an established ace. I think it's a huge longshot that these guys have the appetite for such a risk (i.e. run the risk of Cole getting injured on a 7/230 contract). Also the 2015 Royals showed you don't need an ace to win the WS, it's an exception but you don't 100% need an ace. Their best started posted a 2.7 WAR.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    I'm playing devil's advocate here because we hear about Tulo's contract handcuffing the Jays. Wouldn't it be ironic that the same thing we complain about with Tulo's contract being done again with Cole (if he gets injured)? These guys preach sustainable winners and a move like this, er I should say a risky move like this most likely doesn't happen under this FO. Yes I know Tulo had a history of injuries, but did anyone really see him being this injured? We really didn't see Sale's injury either - guy rarely hit the DL.

    All I'm saying here is I agree you need to overpay for an established ace. I think it's a huge longshot that these guys have the appetite for such a risk (i.e. run the risk of Cole getting injured on a 7/230 contract). Also the 2015 Royals showed you don't need an ace to win the WS, it's an exception but you don't 100% need an ace. Their best started posted a 2.7 WAR.
    Not saying I fully disagree with what you said but the Nats and Astros are in the WS on the backs of their starters which are basically all aces. Scherzer, Strasburg, Corbin, Cole, Verlander, Grienke.


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  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    Not saying I fully disagree with what you said but the Nats and Astros are in the WS on the backs of their starters which are basically all aces. Scherzer, Strasburg, Corbin, Cole, Verlander, Grienke.
    I don't think you're disagreeing with me. I think you need great SP to do well in this league too. The Jays had a great SP staff in 2015 and essential got beat by the bullpen of KC. KC seemed like an exception in that they had no great SP.

    It just goes to show that you can win without great SP, but those are outliers. More times than not a team with great SP should do well. I hate the whole opener thing and I hope other teams take note of the SP of these two teams in the WS where they try to copy their blueprint.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    I hate the whole opener thing and I hope other teams take note of the SP of these two teams in the WS where they try to copy their blueprint.
    100%


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  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    100%
    Absolutely. Unfortunately two teams are hording 6 of the top 20-30 pitchers in the league. Doesnít leave much for the rest of us. I hate bullpen days.

  13. #208
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    I don't mind the opener strategy. I am just not that huge of a Wilmer Font fan. I like openers a heck of a lot more than I like the pitch counts of 100 put on SP's that forces teams to use their bullpens for 3 or 4 innings everyday, but if I am using an opener, I want someone good enough to be an 8th or 9th inning guy. If your job is to come in and get the other teams best hitters out, you better be good.

    If you know you are going to have to use relievers for 3 or 4 innings, why not make sure one of your best relievers faces the other teams best hitters? Why roll the dice and possibly have to use them on the bottom of the order if that is where you are in the lineup when the starters pitch count is reached?

    Since SP's don't really get paid for W's anymore I don't see an issue with it. If I don't think there is a high probability that you are going to give me 7 or 8 innings that day, I have no problem with having someone who can regularly give me 2 zeroes starting the game so that the starter only has to face the top of the lineup twice. The last thing in baseball you want (statistically) is a batter facing a pitcher for the third time. Unless you are someone like Verlander or Cole, hitters normally get better the more chances they have to see someone. This is another reason why so many SP's get yanked after 5 innings. They may not be at 100 pitches yet, but they went through the order twice and their managers don't want the opposing team seeing them for a third time.

    I wouldn't want to design a roster around using openers, but if you only have a couple proven starters I totally understand using them the way TB has. Notice how openers were never used though when Snell, Morton or Glasnow was scheduled to pitch? It isn't what they want to do either, they just do it because it works....just like defensive shifts do.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    Absolutely. Unfortunately two teams are hording 6 of the top 20-30 pitchers in the league. Doesnít leave much for the rest of us. I hate bullpen days.
    It's really speaks to the Astros coaching staff tho. Anyone remember a couple years back when it looked like Verlander's velocity was down and he was on the decline with the Tigers? Comes to the Astros and turns back the clock. Trade for Cole and really emphasize spin and his curveball and turned Cole into the best pitcher in baseball.


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  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    It's really speaks to the Astros coaching staff tho. Anyone remember a couple years back when it looked like Verlander's velocity was down and he was on the decline with the Tigers? Comes to the Astros and turns back the clock. Trade for Cole and really emphasize spin and his curveball and turned Cole into the best pitcher in baseball.
    Excellent observation. I'll add Charlie Morton and Brad Peacock to that list. (there are a few others I can't remember them at the moment)

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