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  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    And were true contenders every year for 5-6 straight years. Jack Morris was the first big name if I recall, coming after the '91 season. Winning. Winning makes people come.

    85 win the division
    86 finish 9.5 games out, but 10 games over .500
    87 finish 2 games out
    88 finish 2 games out
    89 win the division
    90 finish 2 games out
    91 win the division

    Then the free agents start coming, Morris, Winfield, Stewart, Molitor, etc. But notice how much winning had to come first to get guys to come here. And of course, just opened a new state of the art ball park, hosting the all star game. Toronto was the place to be for a few years.

    And of course I did say it was decades since it has happened. And Gillick's tenure was over two decades ago.
    It all comes down to that winning culture...having a FO that is willing to make innovative, creative moves even if it means dealing popular players...having a commitment from ownership to provide the resources to get it done...treating veteran players with respect...

    Over the last 5-10 years the Jays have always appeared to be a team that makes most of the moves it needs to make but then stops short just before they cross the finish line.

    And then they hired Shatkins...

    Interesting read here: https://jaysjournal.com/2019/12/05/t...getting-tired/

  2. #1082
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    Oct 2018
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    Porcello and Red Sox is a possibility, this makes sense considering the Red Sox are up against the luxury tax so getting Porcello on the cheap makes sense.

    Porcello also said this back in May “expressed our willingness to take a discount to make that work”. Wonder why he said that?

  3. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    AA used to say the same ****, but used the word dialogue instead.

    They don't have a track record for that. But Atkins is a first time GM, his only track record is with us. He did make the Liriano trade, I think that would be the biggest trade that was for winning.

    As for Shapiro, no trades like that, but Cleveland was/is in a perpetual state of using mostly cheap players and selling them when they get too expensive. This is an ongoing thing for them, continues to this day. They're talking about shipping out Lindor because he's going to get paid. Cleveland did acquire Swisher and Bourne while Shapiro was there, through FA. So at least he's shown a willingness to pay people in FA.
    “Understand every opportunity”?? Why doesn’t he just say we’ve checked in on everyone? Lol

    Honestly these guys have a PR problem. I’m not even necessarily against what they’re doing, but when Ross and Shap get in front of the cameras and I have to hear them talk, I want them fired. They should just hire a spokesperson and not be seen lol


    The Lost Boys of PSD

  4. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    “Understand every opportunity”?? Why doesn’t he just say we’ve checked in on everyone? Lol

    Honestly these guys have a PR problem. I’m not even necessarily against what they’re doing, but when Ross and Shap get in front of the cameras and I have to hear them talk, I want them fired. They should just hire a spokesperson and not be seen lol
    Oh I agree. Atkins is terrible under the lights of the camera.

  5. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderdan22 View Post
    It all comes down to that winning culture...having a FO that is willing to make innovative, creative moves even if it means dealing popular players...having a commitment from ownership to provide the resources to get it done...treating veteran players with respect...

    Over the last 5-10 years the Jays have always appeared to be a team that makes most of the moves it needs to make but then stops short just before they cross the finish line.

    And then they hired Shatkins...

    Interesting read here: https://jaysjournal.com/2019/12/05/t...getting-tired/
    For sure, but I think they deserve their chance. Next year is year 5. I truly believe every FO deserves 5 years to put their product out there. And they're right where I thought they'd be. Some hope at the end of 2019. Start supplementing the roster. And next year start winning (getting back to .500). If they fail to make any strides next season, I would fire Atkins and turn the reins over to someone else, before the trade deadline. I'd hate for him to make some stupid trades to try and save his job, many GMs have done that in the past.

    If they fail, so be it. The next GM should have a good young team and farm to come in and work with.

  6. #1086
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    Aug 2006
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    958
    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    For sure, but I think they deserve their chance. Next year is year 5. I truly believe every FO deserves 5 years to put their product out there. And they're right where I thought they'd be. Some hope at the end of 2019. Start supplementing the roster. And next year start winning (getting back to .500). If they fail to make any strides next season, I would fire Atkins and turn the reins over to someone else, before the trade deadline. I'd hate for him to make some stupid trades to try and save his job, many GMs have done that in the past.

    If they fail, so be it. The next GM should have a good young team and farm to come in and work with.
    I just don't think the rebuild will work because they are going to need to sign 10-15 quality to impact players to supplement what they have now. Another 5 will have to be acquire through trade. I use these numbers because they have 5-6 quality to impact players on the current roster (Vlad, Bo, Biggio, LGJr, and Jensen...with Pearson coming). There are a couple potentials in players such as Manoah. The rest are a couple years away and some of those will be used as capital for trades, but something must be left in the system for the future. So the rest must come through free agency, and since it is so hard to attract the "best of the best" (Top Gun reference), I think the rebuild falls short. I hope I'm wrong, but I think failure to start the rebuild when it was supposed to will ruin the rebuild as well.

  7. #1087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderdan22 View Post
    I just don't think the rebuild will work because they are going to need to sign 10-15 quality to impact players to supplement what they have now. Another 5 will have to be acquire through trade. I use these numbers because they have 5-6 quality to impact players on the current roster (Vlad, Bo, Biggio, LGJr, and Jensen...with Pearson coming). There are a couple potentials in players such as Manoah. The rest are a couple years away and some of those will be used as capital for trades, but something must be left in the system for the future. So the rest must come through free agency, and since it is so hard to attract the "best of the best" (Top Gun reference), I think the rebuild falls short. I hope I'm wrong, but I think failure to start the rebuild when it was supposed to will ruin the rebuild as well.
    It’s the same problem and questions that every front office has.

    I also think you’re exaggerating a bit. I think they’re 6-8 players away total (1B, CF, DH, 3 SP and 2 good relievers) with a few of those coming up through our system. The only tough spots to fill right now are CF and pitching.

  8. #1088
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    Mets Acquire Jake Marisnick for practically nothing. Didn't even know he was on the block. Would have been a good get.

  9. #1089
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    Mets Acquire Jake Marisnick for practically nothing. Didn't even know he was on the block. Would have been a good get.
    I'm sure Shakins knew because the make sure that they "understand every opportunity."

  10. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    It’s the same problem and questions that every front office has.

    I also think you’re exaggerating a bit. I think they’re 6-8 players away total (1B, CF, DH, 3 SP and 2 good relievers) with a few of those coming up through our system. The only tough spots to fill right now are CF and pitching.
    How am I exaggerating? It's a 26 man roster plus minor league depth. And you need impact players to win the East, not Fischer, Grichuk, and whatever other talent with great upside Shatkins brings in. Oh, I hear Socrates Brito is available...

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    Mets Acquire Jake Marisnick for practically nothing. Didn't even know he was on the block. Would have been a good get.
    Marisnick isn't very good. Like at all

  12. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderdan22 View Post
    I just don't think the rebuild will work because they are going to need to sign 10-15 quality to impact players to supplement what they have now. Another 5 will have to be acquire through trade. I use these numbers because they have 5-6 quality to impact players on the current roster (Vlad, Bo, Biggio, LGJr, and Jensen...with Pearson coming). There are a couple potentials in players such as Manoah. The rest are a couple years away and some of those will be used as capital for trades, but something must be left in the system for the future. So the rest must come through free agency, and since it is so hard to attract the "best of the best" (Top Gun reference), I think the rebuild falls short. I hope I'm wrong, but I think failure to start the rebuild when it was supposed to will ruin the rebuild as well.
    They are going to have to acquire 15-20 players?

  13. #1093
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    Mets Acquire Jake Marisnick for practically nothing. Didn't even know he was on the block. Would have been a good get.
    .....Don't you usually criticize Atkins for signing no name players?
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  14. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderdan22 View Post
    I just don't think the rebuild will work because they are going to need to sign 10-15 quality to impact players to supplement what they have now. Another 5 will have to be acquire through trade. I use these numbers because they have 5-6 quality to impact players on the current roster (Vlad, Bo, Biggio, LGJr, and Jensen...with Pearson coming). There are a couple potentials in players such as Manoah. The rest are a couple years away and some of those will be used as capital for trades, but something must be left in the system for the future. So the rest must come through free agency, and since it is so hard to attract the "best of the best" (Top Gun reference), I think the rebuild falls short. I hope I'm wrong, but I think failure to start the rebuild when it was supposed to will ruin the rebuild as well.
    Manoah, SWR, Groshans, Kirk, Kloff, Moreno. 2 catchers, 3 arms and a SS/3B who should all be up by 2021 except for Kloff really. That's just for now too. It still remains to be seen if Warmoth can bounce back or if Kendall Williams has a good first full season just to name a few of the outliers. Then there's guys like Kay, Zeuch, Wags, Thornton, Tellez, Teoscar, Jansen/McGuire who could all possibly be used as trade bait or possible bullpen options.

    They don't need to sign 15 quality players lol. As for something needing to be left on the farm for the future, yeah they'll need prospects but look at them right now. We have a surplus of arms and catchers in the farm. Trades can be made (as long as they're the right prospects) and we could feel no effects on either of those positions. Do you think it'd be safe to say that one of Kay, Zeuch, Wags or Thornton could be used as a reliever in 2020 and beyond? I think so. Maybe even 2.

    If you look beyond your favourite thing to discuss (the year 2017) you'll see that the Jays are actually set up exceptionally well for the future. After 2020 their biggest yearly commitment will be off the books (Tulo) and then they'll have even more money to spend. I think it was FLeays who said the plan should be to add some reliable arms and a bat or two then then play out 2020 and see where we are going into 2021. A plan that I agree with for the most part. All these young arms could very well fill out a couple spots in the bullpen or a spot or two in the rotation.

    With AA there was always a rush to make things happens because he could never draft young talent. All the talent he acquired and the players he traded for were already in their prime or slowly exiting it. Reyes, Beuhrle, Tulo, JD, Martin, Estrada etc. Not a single one of those players were below the age of 30 when they were acquired. This team isn't like that. This team is one that's going to continue to get better through internal growth every year. The window on this core isn't closing in fact it hasn't even been opened yet.
    Last edited by R. Johnson#3; 12-09-2019 at 07:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  15. #1095
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    Oct 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Marisnick isn't very good. Like at all
    Shapiro has stated many times improving the outfield D is one of their top priorities. Marisnick does that. Yea he can't hit but really what other choices are there? He can run down balls with the best of them, he's also a former Jay. Little risk here

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