The Offseason Lounge

[R. Johnson#3]

So Atkins gets some credit for setting up the books this way yeah?

Absolutely not! This is all thanks to AA making sure the contracts were all up before 2020. Word on the street is he scolded Atkins for wanting to sign guys longer than that.

[ChongInc.]

So Atkins gets some credit for setting up the books this way yeah?

If you’re talking financially then not really.
It isn’t hard to buy out bad contracts and let contracts expire.

He would get more points if he was able to get some serious assets from the tear down rather than just throwing everything in the trash bin.

He will get points if he uses the flexibility well.

[R. Johnson#3]

If you’re talking financially then not really.
It isn’t hard to buy out bad contracts and let contracts expire.

He would get more points if he was able to get some serious assets from the tear down rather than just throwing everything in the trash bin.

He will get points if he uses the flexibility well.

It's also really hard to move terrible contracts.

I pointed out earlier that mistakes are made in rebuilds. The Astros dealt away Folty and Hader while letting JD Martinez walk in FA. The mistakes Atkins has made thus far were holding onto JD and Happ for too long. It would've been awesome to have Jack Flaherty. Other than those two, nobody else could've garnered a good return. The book is still out on the Stroman deal.

One of the assets he's acquired (McGuire) is in trade talks. Couple that with the fact that he came from Hutchison then Liriano and it makes that sequence of deals look pretty great. Liriano helped in 2016 and then turned into a future piece. Teoscar was also acquired somewhere in those deals.

Nate Pearson was drafted with the pick they received for Edwin

Wags for Aaron Loup

Chase Anderson got here from signing Seung Hwan Oh in FA

Considering everyone aside from Stroman, JD and Happ sucked I'm not disappointed by what he got. You can't expect top quality return for garbage. Atkins clearly has a knack for drafting though. The Astros drafted a core of Correa, Bregman and Springer who were picks 1, 2 and 11 respectively. Atkins never had a pick before 21 until Manoah this past year and now the #5 pick this coming season yet still managed to get Bo, Biggio and Pearson.

This off-season will show if Atkins and Shapiro are for real though. Shapiro has been more direct than Atkins has about willingness to spend which could be cause for concern after hearing they had a real chance on Odorizzi. There's no talk about what Odorizzi wanted though.

[ChongInc.]

It's also really hard to move terrible contracts.

I pointed out earlier that mistakes are made in rebuilds. The Astros dealt away Folty and Hader while letting JD Martinez walk in FA. The mistakes Atkins has made thus far were holding onto JD and Happ for too long. It would've been awesome to have Jack Flaherty. Other than those two, nobody else could've garnered a good return. The book is still out on the Stroman deal.

One of the assets he's acquired (McGuire) is in trade talks. Couple that with the fact that he came from Hutchison then Liriano and it makes that sequence of deals look pretty great. Liriano helped in 2016 and then turned into a future piece. Teoscar was also acquired somewhere in those deals.

Nate Pearson was drafted with the pick they received for Edwin

Wags for Aaron Loup

Chase Anderson got here from signing Seung Hwan Oh in FA

Considering everyone aside from Stroman, JD and Happ sucked I'm not disappointed by what he got. You can't expect top quality return for garbage. Atkins clearly has a knack for drafting though. The Astros drafted a core of Correa, Bregman and Springer who were picks 1, 2 and 11 respectively. Atkins never had a pick before 21 until Manoah this past year and now the #5 pick this coming season yet still managed to get Bo, Biggio and Pearson.

This off-season will show if Atkins and Shapiro are for real though. Shapiro has been more direct than Atkins has about willingness to spend which could be cause for concern after hearing they had a real chance on Odorizzi. There's no talk about what Odorizzi wanted though.

What’s all this about? Tldr.

I’m just saying Atkins doesn’t get brownie points for clearing payroll by letting contracts expire over the course of 5 years and either buying out contracts or paying the entire contract to trade players for nothing.

That’s the easiest thing anyone can do - basically doing nothing at all.

[mike_noodles]

https://www.mlb.com/bluejays/news/bl...rease-feedback

Incredibly positive feedback. Remember there was that guy who said it was mandated and the Jays were just following a directive from MLB and these guys deserve no credit for taking the step. Well that was all false and look at the difference it's made for some of these kids.

[bartron_44]

What’s all this about? Tldr.

I’m just saying Atkins doesn’t get brownie points for clearing payroll by letting contracts expire over the course of 5 years and either buying out contracts or paying the entire contract to trade players for nothing.

That’s the easiest thing anyone can do - basically doing nothing at all.

ummm, if I am giving credit to anyone for those moves its Rogers for letting him pay people to go away. What I will give him credit for is doing it just so guys like Bichette and Jansen have a place to play everyday.

They have been shooting for 2020 for quite some time. Even in 2017 they were doing their best to have contracts come off the books by this off season. Once EE passed on his 4 year deal, no one got money past 2019. Then in 2018 they made sure to acquire no contracts that went beyond that season if they didn't want them so they could play as many kids as possible in 2019 to sort through their internal assets.

Sure they got burned by hanging on to a former MVP one season too long, but that was only because he got hurt and missed essentially the first 4 months of 2018 crushing his value. Since they were still trying to compete for a WC spot in 2018 though, hanging on to your best player and getting guys like Granderson, Grichuk, Diaz and Solarte all made a lot of sense. They needed some hitting in the corner OF spots (which Grandy and Grichuk gave them), and they needed a back up for Tulo for when he eventually missed some more time (which Diaz gave them). They couldn't predict JD would miss essentially the entire season prior to the TDL, Tulo would miss the entire season, Osuna would have his whole situation out of nowhere and both Sanchez and Stroman would implode. That team on paper should have easily finished over .500 that year and been in position to be buyers at the TDL instead of sellers to make a push in the second half. Putting that together while on a limited budget without committing long term dollars or giving up top prospects for rentals was actually pretty impressive imo...it just didn't work out because the pieces they had ( not the pieces they acquired) under-performed.


The easy part is definitely over though, so I agree with you on that. Now comes the challenge of actually using all this prospect capital and money that they have saved up to build a winning team. Let's see if they know what they are doing. History says they have a clue and adding final touches....They got the 2016 team back into the playoffs, and they should have had a chance again in 2018 if their stars didn't get decimated by injuries. Now we just need to see if they know how to acquire a couple more stars.

[ChongInc.]

ummm, if I am giving credit to anyone for those moves its Rogers for letting him pay people to go away. What I will give him credit for is doing it just so guys like Bichette and Jansen have a place to play everyday.

They have been shooting for 2020 for quite some time. Even in 2017 they were doing their best to have contracts come off the books by this off season. Once EE passed on his 4 year deal, no one got money past 2019. Then in 2018 they made sure to acquire no contracts that went beyond that season if they didn't want them so they could play as many kids as possible in 2019 to sort through their internal assets.

Sure they got burned by hanging on to a former MVP one season too long, but that was only because he got hurt and missed essentially the first 4 months of 2018 crushing his value. Since they were still trying to compete for a WC spot in 2018 though, hanging on to your best player and getting guys like Granderson, Grichuk, Diaz and Solarte all made a lot of sense. They needed some hitting in the corner OF spots (which Grandy and Grichuk gave them), and they needed a back up for Tulo for when he eventually missed some more time (which Diaz gave them). They couldn't predict JD would miss essentially the entire season prior to the TDL, Tulo would miss the entire season, Osuna would have his whole situation out of nowhere and both Sanchez and Stroman would implode. That team on paper should have easily finished over .500 that year and been in position to be buyers at the TDL instead of sellers to make a push in the second half. Putting that together while on a limited budget without committing long term dollars or giving up top prospects for rentals was actually pretty impressive imo...it just didn't work out because the pieces they had ( not the pieces they acquired) under-performed.


The easy part is definitely over though, so I agree with you on that. Now comes the challenge of actually using all this prospect capital and money that they have saved up to build a winning team. Let's see if they know what they are doing. History says they have a clue and adding final touches....They got the 2016 team back into the playoffs, and they should have had a chance again in 2018 if their stars didn't get decimated by injuries. Now we just need to see if they know how to acquire a couple more stars.

I think we are on the same page.
They will get points if they utilize the budget in the right way to build a contender. They have made many mistakes, but they have an opportunity to put a bandaid on them with a will timed lame duck FA spending spree. We loved the last one lol.

Rogers gets the points for buying the GM’s way out of the aging team.

[R. Johnson#3]

What’s all this about? Tldr.

I’m just saying Atkins doesn’t get brownie points for clearing payroll by letting contracts expire over the course of 5 years and either buying out contracts or paying the entire contract to trade players for nothing.

That’s the easiest thing anyone can do - basically doing nothing at all.

Remember when I pointed out how you just want to say your piece and not have to defend it? Thanks for making that even more true

[R. Johnson#3]

https://www.mlb.com/bluejays/news/bl...rease-feedback

Incredibly positive feedback. Remember there was that guy who said it was mandated and the Jays were just following a directive from MLB and these guys deserve no credit for taking the step. Well that was all false and look at the difference it's made for some of these kids.

Yup I sure do and then the rest of the haters jumped right on and started downplaying it too.

I'm glad there's people on these forums that can see Atkins is building this team from the bottom up. It's getting exciting now because his focus is finally going to shift to the MLB product.

[ChongInc.]

Remember when I pointed out how you just want to say your piece and not have to defend it? Thanks for making that even more true

Yeah definitely not getting defensive despite your attempts.

Dude asked if they get points for clearing all the salary on the team. Imo, no. The points come from building a winner.

[ChongInc.]

Yup I sure do and then the rest of the haters jumped right on and started downplaying it too.

I'm glad there's people on these forums that can see Atkins is building this team from the bottom up. It's getting exciting now because his focus is finally going to shift to the MLB product.

Pretty sure we all called MP out for this. I don’t remember anyone defending him on that rant.

[R. Johnson#3]

Yeah definitely not getting defensive despite your attempts.

Dude asked if they get points for clearing all the salary on the team. Imo, no. The points come from building a winner.

So how many points does he get in 2016 when he made those deals which helped the team get to the post season? Does he get any? Because you've tried to say that money could've been better spent yet all those players had to be traded for.

You also said he didn't get any serious assets and conveniently ignored the ones I pointed out. I even acknowledged his mistakes in that post too. It's hard to get any sort of return when everyone you're trying to deal away sucks but hey, Atkins actually got some pieces along with that fireballer Nate Pearson. I will no longer accept you saying they should've torn it down after 2016 (which is already ridiculous in itself) because you've come out and said you would've liked them to make trades in 2017 that could've extended the window. You also never responded to that post either.

What you fail to realize is that rebuilds don't happen in an instant but this one is actually moving along pretty well all things considering. You keep saying he has to build a winner but that probably won't be happening for another 2 years. We're going into year 2 of the rebuild and already have an excellent core to build around. In the post you're too afraid to respond to I even echo yours and bart's sentiments that this off-season will show if he's for real.

[ChongInc.]

So how many points does he get in 2016 when he made those deals which helped the team get to the post season? Does he get any? Because you've tried to say that money could've been better spent yet all those players had to be traded for.

You also said he didn't get any serious assets and conveniently ignored the ones I pointed out. I even acknowledged his mistakes in that post too. It's hard to get any sort of return when everyone you're trying to deal away sucks but hey, Atkins actually got some pieces along with that fireballer Nate Pearson. I will no longer accept you saying they should've torn it down after 2016 (which is already ridiculous in itself) because you've come out and said you would've liked them to make trades in 2017 that could've extended the window. You also never responded to that post either.

What you fail to realize is that rebuilds don't happen in an instant but this one is actually moving along pretty well all things considering. You keep saying he has to build a winner but that probably won't be happening for another 2 years. We're going into year 2 of the rebuild and already have an excellent core to build around. In the post you're too afraid to respond to I even echo yours and bart's sentiments that this off-season will show if he's for real.

Yes I believe they could have used that money on a player who could still be contributing now instead of old relievers. Or they could have picked them up in FA and not needed to patch those holes mid season. Guys like Benoit and grilli (I realize they were not FA before the season, but similar type talents were available) do not cost a pick to sign in FA. Yes they get limited points for putting a bandaid on that BP, but they lose more points by not starting the rebuild after that, then they gained making a couple low end trades that helped the team get into the playoffs. Those guys were never going to make a big impact in the playoffs and help us win a ship.

If you aren’t going to tear it down, then you should be looking to bolster it. Sitting on your hands is how you end up with a pitching staff headlined by wag, and an outfield headlined by grinch. As I said before, the window never needed to close. We would have a pretty deadly lineup if they still had dosh and enc playing with the young core. and “hypothetically” they could have picked Pearson a few picks earlier and our farm would look the exact same.
So yeah, it’s frustrating when management is giving mixed messages about the direction of the team.

I’ve said all this stuff before.

At least you admit we aren’t close, and best case is 2 years from being a winning franchise. Beautifully played to burn the first 3 years of your young core /s.

This is a weird post by you because you’re basically agreeing with me, but trying to call me out about the same old **** at the same time. Not sure what you want from me but I repeated the same things I’ve said and feel all along for you, so hopefully that finally clears things up.

[mike_noodles]

What’s all this about? Tldr.

I’m just saying Atkins doesn’t get brownie points for clearing payroll by letting contracts expire over the course of 5 years and either buying out contracts or paying the entire contract to trade players for nothing.

That’s the easiest thing anyone can do - basically doing nothing at all.

Not necessarily. See other Blue Jays GMs or Leafs GMs for many years.

It was a hard stretch, no doubt. But we're through the worst now and things are already trending upward. He's still got to use this opportunity well or it's all for nothing. But this is now the exciting part.

[ChongInc.]

Not necessarily. See other Blue Jays GMs or Leafs GMs for many years.

It was a hard stretch, no doubt. But we're through the worst now and things are already trending upward. He's still got to use this opportunity well or it's all for nothing. But this is now the exciting part.

Those leafs and blue jays GM’s we’re trying to build winning on field products. That’s the difference imo.

Jays fo was trying to lose and they did a great job at it lol.

You’re right though. If they put in the work this offseason then they can undo a lot of their many mistakes. AA made a lot of mistakes too, but he seemed to learn from them. Really that is all I ask for: I don’t need perfection, but I do need direction, hard work, learning from their mistakes, tangible goals and honesty.