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  1. #3466
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Possibly. He usually swings for the fences on picks that will be compensated should he not sign the players. Luckily, when he swings for the fences he still sticks to his number.

    Looking at all the 1sts he didnít sign, those players did them selves a disservice not taking the deal.
    There's no such thing as swinging for the fences on draft picks. The fence is set with the pick order you get.

    Also saying look at the players he picked, they did themselves a disservice is also absurd, because it reflects poorly on A) his drafting of talent and B) his inability to sign said talent (especially with your implication of them being poorer talent).

  2. #3467
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    I did hate the unsigned 1st round picks

  3. #3468
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    *sigh*

    He doesnít have to sign those same players to long term deals. Signing a consistently injured JD or a 36 year old Cole Hamels to a multi year deal would be dumb. The reason he signed those players is because he missed out on all the players who would be good gets on multi year deals. Players that I mentioned before like Stras, Cole, Ryu etc.
    Signing JD or Hamels last year on a 3 year deal probably would have been pretty good FWIW.

    Players like a 31 year old Keuchel or a 29 year old Ozuna would also fit that bill. Unfortunately he was only able to sign them to 1 year deals. Had he have been able to lock them into multi year deals then ATL would have 2 holes filled. Unfortunately for them, thatís not the case. Heís swung and missed in 3 consecutive off-seasons.
    Nothing like criticizing someone for not being able to sign someone to a long term deal when they only wanted 1 year deals at the time they first joined the team. Braves are still in on Ozuna and were in on Keuchel last year too.

    By your logic we shouldíve signed Ryu to a 1 year deal just in case he didnít do well. Good thing Atkins put the work in to lock him up for 4 years instead.
    That's not my logic though. I actually said it depends on the situation. Risk and reward.

    Ryu should be signed to a short term deal (3-4 years) but I wouldn't have signed Stras to a 7 year deal. I wouldn't have signed Mad Bum to 5 years but I would have for Wheeler.

  4. #3469
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    The money is there. This is something Iíve been trying to communicate to you for the last I donít even know how many pages. They have 111 million to go before they reach the highest salary cap the team has ever had which is 177 million. They have more money to spend than money committed for crying out loud. Your reluctance to spend makes no sense.


    So you are telling me Rogers is going to throw out $70 million this year alone? Can you show me where?

    I don't doubt we can get to high levels of payroll. Why would it all be this year alone?

  5. #3470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    Well they still have to operate within a budget. You can add players via trade but the money has to be there, unless it's a rental.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post


    So you are telling me Rogers is going to throw out $70 million this year alone? Can you show me where?

    I don't doubt we can get to high levels of payroll. Why would it all be this year alone?
    First you were saying the money needs to be there. Iím not telling you Rogers is going to throw money around. Iím simply telling you they have the financial means to do so.

    I never said Rogers is going to spend 70 mil this off-season. If youíre asking me to show you how they could, well, Iíve already highlighted that earlier in this thread but just for fun.

    Springer 4 years 120 mil (30 mil AAV)
    Trade for Lindor (21 mil)
    Trade for Snell (10 mil AAV)

    Thatís even less than the random number you threw at me (70 mil). Also I was talking about how they have money to spend in this off-season and next. Not just this year. Still waiting on your answer to the Springer question. Would you rather sign him for 1 year or 4?

  6. #3471
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    First you were saying the money needs to be there. Iím not telling you Rogers is going to throw money around. Iím simply telling you they have the financial means to do so.

    I never said Rogers is going to spend 70 mil this off-season. If youíre asking me to show you how they could, well,
    You want to know why it was worded out that way?

    You do realize that teams operate with a budget regardless of the money they are capable of spending right Rogers could spend $300 million on the Blue Jays if they wanted. But will they?

    What's Rogers budget this year? Can you tell me because I am actually not sure. But I am going with the assumption that increases in payroll will be incremental. I don't doubt they could spend $170 mil. Are we getting there after 1 year? Or will be go from $120 to $135 to $150 to $175?

    Iíve already highlighted that earlier in this thread but just for fun.

    Springer 4 years 120 mil (30 mil AAV)
    Trade for Lindor (21 mil)
    Trade for Snell (10 mil AAV)

    Thatís even less than the random number you threw at me (70 mil). Also I was talking about how they have money to spend in this off-season and next. Not just this year. Still waiting on your answer to the Springer question. Would you rather sign him for 1 year or 4?
    I was going under the situation where we signed say $50 mil in the offseason (between pitching and hitting) but traded for a mid season player like Grienke (who would add another $20-30 mil per year (unless we got money).

    Also, remember what I discussed with you last week. The idea of adding Lindor, Snell and Springer is absurd. Don't ask me those questions.

    You can ask me 2 general questions.
    1. Is adding 1 big fish (ie Springer) and multiple complementary pieces good enough to make us a playoff team?
    2. Is it worth adding a big fish this year or wait until next year? If we add it this year, how likely are we to spend on big fishes next year.

    Only quote me when you want to discuss those scenarios. If you want to discuss your scenarios, that's fine but don't expect me to engage.

  7. #3472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    Different players and circumstances dictate a team's terms and value. With draft compensation attached, I'd either never sign the player (JD if he were qualified after his 2 years of injuries). For in Springer or Realmuto case with a pick compensation for 3-5 years. Similarly I'd rather give D.D. a one year offer with a club option for 2 not multi year. Can't compare Springer, to a Morton for example.
    Exactly. So it depends on each player.

  8. #3473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    You want to know why it was worded out that way?

    You do realize that teams operate with a budget regardless of the money they are capable of spending right Rogers could spend $300 million on the Blue Jays if they wanted. But will they?

    What's Rogers budget this year? Can you tell me because I am actually not sure. But I am going with the assumption that increases in payroll will be incremental. I don't doubt they could spend $170 mil. Are we getting there after 1 year? Or will be go from $120 to $135 to $150 to $175?



    I was going under the situation where we signed say $50 mil in the offseason (between pitching and hitting) but traded for a mid season player like Grienke (who would add another $20-30 mil per year (unless we got money).

    Also, remember what I discussed with you last week. The idea of adding Lindor, Snell and Springer is absurd. Don't ask me those questions.

    You can ask me 2 general questions.
    1. Is adding 1 big fish (ie Springer) and multiple complementary pieces good enough to make us a playoff team?
    2. Is it worth adding a big fish this year or wait until next year? If we add it this year, how likely are we to spend on big fishes next year.

    Only quote me when you want to discuss those scenarios. If you want to discuss your scenarios, that's fine but don't expect me to engage.
    What's really funny is I give thought out responses to you only for you to move the goal posts on what you've been saying. Again, I don't know if they'll spend the money. I'm just saying they have it. You're now saying you assume the increase to be incremental when just a few pages ago you were questioning if they even had money to make big moves. Which one is it?

    You still haven't answered my question. It wasn't about adding Springer, Lindor and Snell. The question was would you rather sign Springer to a 1 year deal or a 4 year deal? The reason I'm asking is because you've been defending AA supplementing his young core with 1 year deals for quite a while now. I just want to know if you think we should do the same?
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  9. #3474
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    What's really funny is I give thought out responses to you only for you to move the goal posts on what you've been saying.
    You do realize big moves require significant amount of capital right?

    Again, I don't know if they'll spend the money. I'm just saying they have it. You're now saying you assume the increase to be incremental when just a few pages ago you were questioning if they even had money to make big moves. Which one is it?
    So this is the problem. This isn't about moving the goalpost. I think we may just be on completely different ends of the spectrum. What is this based on? Their budget or their net worth?

    Because I have NEVER denied that Rogers could afford a large payroll. But having money isn't the same as having a budget. I'm an accountant, so how much money someone has means nothing to me unless I know what their budget is. I believe you may be on the opposite side where you look at how much they can afford without understanding their budget.

    When you tell me how much the budget is, then it will be easier to have this discussion.

    You still haven't answered my question. It wasn't about adding Springer, Lindor and Snell. The question was would you rather sign Springer to a 1 year deal or a 4 year deal? The reason I'm asking is because you've been defending AA supplementing his young core with 1 year deals for quite a while now. I just want to know if you think we should do the same?
    If we are discussing Springer, I would sign him to longer than 1 year deal.

    But see, the bolded is a falsehood and this is the problem. I have never said he should go for 1 year deals. I'm saying for those exact situations he was dealing with, he should have gone for 1 year deals. If he tried and missed out on players like Ryu/Wheeler/MadBum last year, then he's right sign players to short term deals if he can't get the players he want for long term year deals.

    I think you are going under the assumption that he is seeking out 1 year deals, which is probably not true. In specific situations, he is probably seeking long term deals and giving out ST deals if he can't get the players he wants on long term deals.

    Ie if the Braves offered $75 mil/4 years, then if the Jays offered $80 mil/4 years then the Braves have to either offer $85 mil or move onto someone else. He chose to move onto someone else. Which is what happens and what we did last year. When we got outbid for certain players, we moved on to other players.
    Last edited by Raps18-19 Champ; 11-26-2020 at 04:35 PM.

  10. #3475
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    Iím sure aa will sign some free agents to multi year deals. Iím not really that concerned about his ability to do so

  11. #3476
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    I don't really follow the Braves but they obviously have a plan and targets and executed that in getting Smyly and Morton. I mean the deals make sense for them.

    I'd easily take both on those 1 year deals overpay or not. I don't see any argument against what they're doing - none. They are adding 2 veteran pitchers one just coming off a nice post season run.

    and as for the budget Shapiro is meeting with Rogers this month on his payroll proposals, we are nearing the end of November so that meeting has probably already occurred. It has been a slow off season so far, with the Dec 2nd non tender deadline coming up things may start to heat up.
    Last edited by hanton; 11-26-2020 at 05:50 PM.

  12. #3477
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    It would be good if we had a general ballpark of the budget. Having the pandemic really makes it an unknown.

  13. #3478
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    Yeah, there's been a lot of tough talk from the front office, but so far the only guys they've made offers to were Gausman and Ray. This offseason is reminding me more and more of the year we signed Morales. We need another Ryu.

  14. #3479
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    I feel strongly that we will give someone 20m AAV this off-season . Or 2 lemeihu/Tanaka types

  15. #3480
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    Quote Originally Posted by LechWalesa View Post
    Yeah, there's been a lot of tough talk from the front office, but so far the only guys they've made offers to were Gausman and Ray. This offseason is reminding me more and more of the year we signed Morales. We need another Ryu.
    You remember the cynicism last off-season early though right? You know, before we signed Ryu? No one is signing anywhere right now. MLB off-season is just so bloody slow. I don't know how that is predictive of a "Morales" type of off-season.

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