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  1. #496
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Rogers Centre
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Yes I believe they could have used that money on a player who could still be contributing now instead of old relievers. Or they could have picked them up in FA and not needed to patch those holes mid season. Guys like Benoit and grilli (I realize they were not FA before the season, but similar type talents were available) do not cost a pick to sign in FA. Yes they get limited points for putting a bandaid on that BP, but they lose more points by not starting the rebuild after that, then they gained making a couple low end trades that helped the team get into the playoffs. Those guys were never going to make a big impact in the playoffs and help us win a ship.
    Okay, roughly 20 mil was spent on Liriano, Grilli and Benoit. Each of them were instrumental in getting us to the playoffs. Our bullpen was basically Osuna because Cecil **** the bed all year up until September. We also needed a 5th starter and Liriano filled that role in a great way with a 2.92 ERA. Do you honestly think they could've gotten better production out of 2 relievers and 1 starter with only 20 million to spend? Seriously? Atkins did a great job in 2016.

    You say you wanted the money to be for the future though. So who were some relievers we could've signed for 20 mil or less? Keep in mind the rotation would still be in shambles considering Sanchez and Estrada sucked from 2017 on and they would need a 5th starter.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    If you arenít going to tear it down, then you should be looking to bolster it. Sitting on your hands is how you end up with a pitching staff headlined by wag, and an outfield headlined by grinch. As I said before, the window never needed to close. We would have a pretty deadly lineup if they still had dosh and enc playing with the young core. and ďhypotheticallyĒ they could have picked Pearson a few picks earlier and our farm would look the exact same.
    So yeah, itís frustrating when management is giving mixed messages about the direction of the team.

    Iíve said all this stuff before.
    I've also said that they had no salary room to add to this team many times before yet here we are. Now in this paragraph you say the window never had to close. So I assume that would mean no chance on trading guys like Stroman and Happ on top of the names you mentioned? If so then who would we trade to extend that window? Russell Martin, Kevin Pillar, Marco Estrada, Kendrys Morales? A whole bunch of guys who sucked? You also won't let the Pearson thing die. Why would they decide not to pick the player they picked at 24 in order to pick a player they picked later? It doesn't make sense. It's Edwin or Pearson and you can't have it both ways.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    At least you admit we arenít close, and best case is 2 years from being a winning franchise. Beautifully played to burn the first 3 years of your young core /s.

    This is a weird post by you because youíre basically agreeing with me, but trying to call me out about the same old **** at the same time. Not sure what you want from me but I repeated the same things Iíve said and feel all along for you, so hopefully that finally clears things up.
    This off-season will determine if I have faith in Atkins going forward. If Chase Anderson is the best starter acquired then I'll be pissed. Atkins has proven that he can build an excellent farm along with turning crap players into okay prospects. This off-season is his first real shot to work on a team that's rising up as opposed to falling down. He even said this off-season will be an important one moving forward so I'm expecting stuff to happen.

    Your comment about wasting the first 3 years of development is cute. I guess the Astros pissed away 6 years of Altuve and 3 of Correa before they decided to make a push. It's painfully obvious how much you miss AA because you expect things to happen immediately. Atkins isn't going to make a flurry of deals and throw a $50+ million dollar contract or 2 on top of that. He might do one of those things though. AA was exciting but he was completely reckless. Atkins is conservative and boring as hell but his approach is starting to bare fruit. He's not going to gut the farm and push this team into contention for 2020. He's working towards it though.

    I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I agree with you but I don't. If it's about competing in 2021 then yeah but I don't think there's anything else we agree upon lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  2. #497
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    11,665
    So Odorizzi apparently said teams were reluctant because of the draft pick compensation and he really didnít want to sit till feb. makes me believe a team offering 3y at 17-18 per probably would of signed him.
    So who would of been happy with signing him to that before he had to make the QO decision?
    On one hand you get a solid mid to upper rotation guy coming off a career year. Money to spend and with one upper end arm signed you can move on to adding other pieces.
    Then in the other hand your losing a top 50 pick in an apparently loaded draft, some IFA money to spend, probably paying a little over market price for a guy that will be good for sure but could easily fall back to being rather average.

  3. #498
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    10,238
    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Okay, roughly 20 mil was spent on Liriano, Grilli and Benoit. Each of them were instrumental in getting us to the playoffs. Our bullpen was basically Osuna because Cecil **** the bed all year up until September. We also needed a 5th starter and Liriano filled that role in a great way with a 2.92 ERA. Do you honestly think they could've gotten better production out of 2 relievers and 1 starter with only 20 million to spend? Seriously? Atkins did a great job in 2016.
    He did fine for a bandaid solution.

    Iím not going to comb through all of the FA signings that year for you.
    However, all of those 3 players were getting paid market value from Being signed in FA. If they could afford them at the tdl, then they could have afforded similar talent in the offseason. Possibly similar talent that isnít 35y/o+.

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    You say you wanted the money to be for the future though. So who were some relievers we could've signed for 20 mil or less? Keep in mind the rotation would still be in shambles considering Sanchez and Estrada sucked from 2017 on and they would need a 5th starter.
    I would have much preferred they spend the money on signing a long term piece. 20m buys that in FA.

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    I've also said that they had no salary room to add to this team many times before yet here we are. Now in this paragraph you say the window never had to close. So I assume that would mean no chance on trading guys like Stroman and Happ on top of the names you mentioned? If so then who would we trade to extend that window? Russell Martin, Kevin Pillar, Marco Estrada, Kendrys Morales? A whole bunch of guys who sucked?
    No salary room... and yet they added 20m at the deadline...

    The window never had to close if they kept enc and dosh *i have been very clear about why I mean by not closing the window. Iím not sure why you keep asking this question* We would have a DEADLY lineup heading into next season. No need to make trades to bolster the team. The happ and stroman trades havenít done anything to bolster the jays. I hope SWR does in a couple years.

    The smart GM would have moved Alford back then. I know I was hoping they would. Dig up the post if you donít believe me.

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    You also won't let the Pearson thing die. Why would they decide not to pick the player they picked at 24 in order to pick a player they picked later? It doesn't make sense. It's Edwin or Pearson and you can't have it both ways.
    Why? There are many reasons, but the main one is that Pearson is the better of the 2 prospects. As for why they would pick warmoth before Pearson? Because they obviously didnít think the 2 teams picking between their picks would take Pearson.

    I dunno, maybe Iím giving Atkins too much credit in believing he would have picked the better of the 2 specs.

    You can absolutely have it both ways. Itís a hypothetical scenario. Only Atkins knows if they would have picked Pearson if they only had one pick. I sure hope they would have.

    You can dig your heels in the sand all you want but it doesnít change the fact that Pearson was available and picked by the jays 3 picks later. If they picked him at 24, we would have pretty much the exact same farm system, and we could have had enc bashing bombs instead of morales taking a spot on the 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    This off-season will determine if I have faith in Atkins going forward. If Chase Anderson is the best starter acquired then I'll be pissed. Atkins has proven that he can build an excellent farm along with turning crap players into okay prospects. This off-season is his first real shot to work on a team that's rising up as opposed to falling down. He even said this off-season will be an important one moving forward so I'm expecting stuff to happen.

    Your comment about wasting the first 3 years of development is cute. I guess the Astros pissed away 6 years of Altuve and 3 of Correa before they decided to make a push. It's painfully obvious how much you miss AA because you expect things to happen immediately. Atkins isn't going to make a flurry of deals and throw a $50+ million dollar contract or 2 on top of that. He might do one of those things though. AA was exciting but he was completely reckless. Atkins is conservative and boring as hell but his approach is starting to bare fruit. He's not going to gut the farm and push this team into contention for 2020. He's working towards it though.
    Yes the Astros burned 6 years of altuve and 3 years of Correa. Thatís how math works.

    We watched AA learn on the job. What has he done that is reckless in atl? I definitely do wish we had AA because he had vision and direction. He was also honest with fans and himself.

    Iím not expecting things to happen immediately. In fact Iím not expecting things to happen at all with Atkins. I donít think he understands what it takes to win in the ALE, and he hasnít done anything to change my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I agree with you but I don't. If it's about competing in 2021 then yeah but I don't think there's anything else we agree upon lol.
    Well you said the jays wonít contend for 3 years. I agree and I think that is best case scenario. We are 19-21 pieces away from contending. We arenít close dude. Pearson is the only potentially top end spec coming up this year. 1/21.

  4. #499
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Ontario
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    12,779

  5. #500
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Side
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    12,195
    Quote Originally Posted by LanceUpperCut View Post
    So Odorizzi apparently said teams were reluctant because of the draft pick compensation and he really didnít want to sit till feb. makes me believe a team offering 3y at 17-18 per probably would of signed him.
    So who would of been happy with signing him to that before he had to make the QO decision?
    On one hand you get a solid mid to upper rotation guy coming off a career year. Money to spend and with one upper end arm signed you can move on to adding other pieces.
    Then in the other hand your losing a top 50 pick in an apparently loaded draft, some IFA money to spend, probably paying a little over market price for a guy that will be good for sure but could easily fall back to being rather average.
    I wouldnít have been upset but wouldíve cringed welcoming him to the team for that price. 17-18 mil over 3 years plus the draft pick. Thatís pretty steep for Odorizzi.

  6. #501
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1,310
    2019 Odorizzi was no fluke and he could have gotten more on the open market regardless of what he said. So what gives?

    "The righty indicated that heís comfortable in all respects with the organization"

    Reading in between the liens he wanted to stay with the Twins because his pitching coach along with his new off season training program were directly responsible for his increased velocity and new improved mechanics. So, why change?

    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jake-odo...d-career-year/

    HPD take note!

  7. #502
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,238
    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    2019 Odorizzi was no fluke and he could have gotten more on the open market regardless of what he said. So what gives?

    "The righty indicated that heís comfortable in all respects with the organization"

    Reading in between the liens he wanted to stay with the Twins because his pitching coach along with his new off season training program were directly responsible for his increased velocity and new improved mechanics. So, why change?

    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jake-odo...d-career-year/

    HPD take note!
    If he has another great year it will mean some big offers next season too.

  8. #503
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Ontario
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    12,779
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    If he has another great year it will mean some big offers next season too.
    And theyíre not allowed to qualify him either which will help. Heís gambling on himself. I like when players do that. I also read that heís hoping to negotiate a new deal with the Twins.

  9. #504
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,238
    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    And theyíre not allowed to qualify him either which will help. Heís gambling on himself. I like when players do that. I also read that heís hoping to negotiate a new deal with the Twins.
    Canít qualify 2 years in a row? I never knew that but it definitely makes sense.

  10. #505
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    1,310
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Canít qualify 2 years in a row? I never knew that but it definitely makes sense.
    Yea it's a one time thing

  11. #506
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    Jan 2007
    Location
    Ontario
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    12,779
    Yeah, I believe it was part of the latest CBA.

  12. #507
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    North Shore
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    10,047
    I wish the QO would just go away. It probably won't speed up the off season so it's on par with other leagues but its bound to help

  13. #508
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    10,238
    In the ATL forum they are asking for Giles for ender lol. Doesnít seem fair at all from our perspective. Giles should get more.

  14. #509
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Orlando, FL
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    4,381
    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    I wouldnít have been upset but wouldíve cringed welcoming him to the team for that price. 17-18 mil over 3 years plus the draft pick. Thatís pretty steep for Odorizzi.
    Yep especially the part where Lanceuppercut points out the career year. I'd rather take the money and pay Roark and Teheran and see how the Jays fare with 3 reliable pitchers in 2020 than attempt to go for it haphazardly with Odorizzi.

  15. #510
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    1,310
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    In the ATL forum they are asking for Giles for ender lol. Doesnít seem fair at all from our perspective. Giles should get more.
    Trading Giles to the Braves makes less sense now since they signed Smith. However, they could always move Smith to the 8th and Giles becomes the closer. Melancon has been ineffective so they might want to move on from him.

    as for the potential trade...I don't know...sure I'd like more in return but as long as Ender is healthy the guy can play a pretty good CF

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