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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    I don't know why we keep going back to this but by now it should be crystal clear the development and team building plans Ross and Shap are implementing. DEPTH. That's it. Drafting easy projectable college pitchers, trading for AAAA type players, signing/trading for rebound type players etc. If you keep churning out these types of players, eventually someone has to become good. Lol that's what I've taken from it. These guys don't take risks. They can prove me wrong but everything they've shown me is that these guys are risk adverse to the nth degree.
    Eventually something good comes out of that. But when will that be? When Vlad and Bichette are a year or two away from FA? My argument is that the depth just isn't there based on where the farm is ranks today. The response to that is to list a bunch of prospect who "could" be good, but probably have limited value (if this FO wants to make a trade). Shoot I could list a bunch of Red Sox prospects and argue why they have a chance to be a top 3 farm in a couple of years.

    Fact is you have a bunch of farm publications ranking the Jays outside the top 10 and that screams that the Jays have a certain lack of farm depth in the foreseeable future. It has nothing to do with 2+ years down the road. That's not what I'm trying to get at here.
    Last edited by FLeays; 10-16-2019 at 12:34 PM.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    Eventually something good comes out of that. But when will that be? When Vlad and Bichette are a year or two away from FA? My argument is that the depth just isn't there based on where the farm is ranks today. The response to that is to list a bunch of prospect who "could" be good, but probably have limited value (if this FO wants to make a trade). Shoot I could list a bunch of Red Sox prospects and argue why they have a chance to be a top 3 farm in a couple of years.

    Fact is you have a bunch of farm publications ranking the Jays outside the top 10 and that screams that the Jays have a certain lack of farm depth in the foreseeable future. It has nothing to do with 2+ years down the road. That's not what I'm trying to get at here.
    Who knows? Hey I'm not agreeing with their philosophy I'm just stating what I think it is. AA went boom or bust in drafting. More often then not, they busted, but their profiles gave them value before they busted that we were able to deal for top end players. I don't like the safe plays in drafting, but maybe some of them will pan out to be better than what they are profiled and be useful either on the field or in trades in the future.


    The Lost Boys of PSD

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    I don't know why we keep going back to this but by now it should be crystal clear the development and team building plans Ross and Shap are implementing. DEPTH. That's it. Drafting easy projectable college pitchers, trading for AAAA type players, signing/trading for rebound type players etc. If you keep churning out these types of players, eventually someone has to become good. Lol that's what I've taken from it. These guys don't take risks. They can prove me wrong but everything they've shown me is that these guys are risk adverse to the nth degree.
    I dont know how you can say that. There is a blueprint for rebuilding teams that wasnt invented here. Take flyers on as many low cost assets as you possibly can while you are not concerned with win totals.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I dont know how you can say that. There is a blueprint for rebuilding teams that wasnt invented here. Take flyers on as many low cost assets as you possibly can while you are not concerned with win totals.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    where or what is that blueprint?

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    I don't know why we keep going back to this but by now it should be crystal clear the development and team building plans Ross and Shap are implementing. DEPTH. That's it. Drafting easy projectable college pitchers, trading for AAAA type players, signing/trading for rebound type players etc. If you keep churning out these types of players, eventually someone has to become good. Lol that's what I've taken from it. These guys don't take risks. They can prove me wrong but everything they've shown me is that these guys are risk adverse to the nth degree.
    Oh yeah. Gio Urshela was a player that panned out with this philosophy. Too bad he somehow ended up with the Yankees. I feel like their risk aversion is going to be what hurts them because of the division the Jays play in.

    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    Who knows? Hey I'm not agreeing with their philosophy I'm just stating what I think it is. AA went boom or bust in drafting. More often then not, they busted, but their profiles gave them value before they busted that we were able to deal for top end players. I don't like the safe plays in drafting, but maybe some of them will pan out to be better than what they are profiled and be useful either on the field or in trades in the future.
    And somehow he also managed to hang onto players that had value at the time of his departure like Stroman, Sanchez, and Osuna. Thor is the one that keeps getting mentioned though. Don't forget Deck McGuire was a projectable college pitcher when Sale was still on the board as well. That didn't go too well either.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I dont know how you can say that. There is a blueprint for rebuilding teams that wasnt invented here. Take flyers on as many low cost assets as you possibly can while you are not concerned with win totals.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Those tanking teams ended up trading those guys if they provided any sort of value. Seems to me that Ross and Shap think some of these guys can still pan out as long term pieces. ex) Derek Fisher, Billy McKinney, Teoscar


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  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    Who knows? Hey I'm not agreeing with their philosophy I'm just stating what I think it is. AA went boom or bust in drafting. More often then not, they busted, but their profiles gave them value before they busted that we were able to deal for top end players. I don't like the safe plays in drafting, but maybe some of them will pan out to be better than what they are profiled and be useful either on the field or in trades in the future.
    There's some truth there for sure. They have even mentioned that about the group of prospect pitchers they have, someone will turn out.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    Oh yeah. Gio Urshela was a player that panned out with this philosophy. Too bad he somehow ended up with the Yankees. I feel like their risk aversion is going to be what hurts them because of the division the Jays play in.



    And somehow he also managed to hang onto players that had value at the time of his departure like Stroman, Sanchez, and Osuna. Thor is the one that keeps getting mentioned though. Don't forget Deck McGuire was a projectable college pitcher when Sale was still on the board as well. That didn't go too well either.
    They will need to take a risk at some point. Every champion does I think. (The Nats let Harper walk, signed Corbin and look now, losing Harper was a big risk). Of course the flip side is, you take the risk and it doesn't work out, you can set it back a long time. So it's not just about taking the right risks, the timing has a lot to do with it. I would say we're not there yet.

  9. #144
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    I think they have done a good job maintaining financial flexibility to build around whomever they deem their next long term "core" to be. The last 2 seasons have been about clearing money off the books and building assets. That is why they have been preaching depth. When it comes time to start talking trades with other teams, you need to have organizational depth in order to be able to find trading partners.

    This is the first time we have really heard them hype up an off season like it was going to be a big one. Even in 2016 and 2017 they never came out and said "this off season is going to be big for us" like they did a week or two ago. Back then they were dealing with limited funds to add to an aging core that they knew was soon likely all walking out the door. This time around they have a young team that they can feel comfortable locking up free agents to play with on long term deals if they fit, and a tonne of money to spend to go after the pieces they want.

    They have essentially saved up for the past two to three years to go xmas shopping this year and next year. They stuck to their guns and built a homegrown core to build around. I think they deserve to be the ones to do the shopping. Lets not get disappointed until we unwrap all of their presents

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    I think they have done a good job maintaining financial flexibility to build around whomever they deem their next long term "core" to be. The last 2 seasons have been about clearing money off the books and building assets. That is why they have been preaching depth. When it comes time to start talking trades with other teams, you need to have organizational depth in order to be able to find trading partners.

    This is the first time we have really heard them hype up an off season like it was going to be a big one. Even in 2016 and 2017 they never came out and said "this off season is going to be big for us" like they did a week or two ago. Back then they were dealing with limited funds to add to an aging core that they knew was soon likely all walking out the door. This time around they have a young team that they can feel comfortable locking up free agents to play with on long term deals if they fit, and a tonne of money to spend to go after the pieces they want.

    They have essentially saved up for the past two to three years to go xmas shopping this year and next year. They stuck to their guns and built a homegrown core to build around. I think they deserve to be the ones to do the shopping. Lets not get disappointed until we unwrap all of their presents
    Have they hyped up the offseason? Moving onto pitching depth this offseason isn't really something I get excited for, considering our pitching is a disaster in the first place.

    IMO, long term, another bad year would be alright. Give the core a chance to not just show they can do it over the course of a full season, but see them battle some adversity as pitchers adjust to them. I want to see them clear out the OF log jam, and see if anyone can figure it out or flounder amongst the current pieces in the rotation. And of course grab another top 10 spec in the draft. I'm excited for our pick this year.


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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    Have they hyped up the offseason? Moving onto pitching depth this offseason isn't really something I get excited for, considering our pitching is a disaster in the first place.

    IMO, long term, another bad year would be alright. Give the core a chance to not just show they can do it over the course of a full season, but see them battle some adversity as pitchers adjust to them. I want to see them clear out the OF log jam, and see if anyone can figure it out or flounder amongst the current pieces in the rotation. And of course grab another top 10 spec in the draft. I'm excited for our pick this year.
    Yeah , initial comments made me feel like the outlook for the off season was pretty bleak too...but you must have missed the interviews where they say this one is going to be big when they look back a couple years from now. They said acquiring "filler" won't be good enough, and that they are looking to add pitchers they can count on who can contribute in significant ways. It was like a day or two after he made the depth comments. They quote him here:

    https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/...-spending.html

  12. #147
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    And for me, how he said it was important too. There seemed to be an acknowledgement that this off season could make or break the rebuild.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    And for me, how he said it was important too. There seemed to be an acknowledgement that this off season could make or break the rebuild.
    Or at least their tenure with the jays.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    Yeah , initial comments made me feel like the outlook for the off season was pretty bleak too...but you must have missed the interviews where they say this one is going to be big when they look back a couple years from now. They said acquiring "filler" won't be good enough, and that they are looking to add pitchers they can count on who can contribute in significant ways. It was like a day or two after he made the depth comments. They quote him here:

    https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/...-spending.html
    I picked up a lot of damage control in those follow up comments.
    Even just the idea of “guys we can rely on to pitch every 5 days” doesn’t fill me with excitement. If those guys aren’t top 3 playoff rotation caliber then they basically are “filler” at the end of the day.

    I’m having a tough time imagining how they will add 30-35 wins to this roster without gutting the farm or without signing the All of the top FA’s on the market.

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