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  1. #16
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    Its all about asset management, I rather get something for the dinosaurs no pun intended

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Its all about asset management, I rather get something for the dinosaurs no pun intended
    Not sure I agree with the bolded. For this coming season, organizational culture and development of some of the younger players holds more value for me.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    Not sure I agree with the bolded. For this coming season, organizational culture and development of some of the younger players holds more value for me.
    Its easy to get attached but one of the qualities that I love about Masai is that he is cerebral and will make the tough decisions that need to be made.

    While I share your sentiment for the players and their accomplishments with the team Im much more interested in the future of the team at this point. When DeRozan was traded i learned not to get attached. You have to be willing to pull the trigger for the betterment of the team.

    Im not saying its necessary to move all three of Lowry, Gasol, and or Ibaka. But if they all walked and we got nothing for them I wouldnt be happy.

  4. #19
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    An example of how we can get good young players for our expiring vets to accelerate the inevitable rebuild.

    Trade with Miami.

    Justice Winslow (23)
    Tyler Hero (19)
    Bam Adebayo (22)
    Ollynyk (28)

    Dion Waiters - salary dump
    Myers Leonard- salary dump

    Total salary : $55mill

    For

    Lowry (34)
    Gasol (35)
    Isiah Tailor - filler
    Cameron Payne - filler

    Total salary: 61 mill


    Undesirable Contracts were taking back:

    - Waiters would be the only undesirable contracts on the roster. Waiters will make 12 million this year and next, but we take him in the deal to help salaries match and to help Miami dump him. Also Miami has the ability to absorb the difference in salary being sent over.

    - Ollynyk has a player option next year for 12 mill which is a great bargain for his services and I would hope he opts in to be a serviceable stretch big in the front court.

    What were left with:

    S.Johnson, RHJ, and Myers Leonard are all on one year contracts. Any of them could earn a role moving forward with strong performances in a contract year. Same could be said for Ibaka who is expiring as well. Or all could expire giving Masai a lot of cap flexibility next season.


    The new young core:
    Pascal Siakam (25)
    Fred Van Vleet (25)
    Justice Winslow (23)
    Bam Adebayo (22)
    OG Anunoby (22)
    Tyler Hero (19)

    The vets: Ibaka: Powell, Ollynyk

    The prospects: Thomas, T.Davis, Boucher, Hernandez

    This would be a great start. Not only do we have a young core with a ton of potential, we would also have lots of cap flexibility moving forward. Some might hate this deal as there are no star players, but I think the young players we receive have a lot of potential in Winslow, Hero, & Adebayao and could look great along side Siakam and FVV in nurses system with a wide open window to develop.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-01-2019 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #20
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    Why Miami does it?

    As constructed currently Miami will be lucky to be a 7th or 8th seed, however signing Butler is a certain indication that theyve moved in to win now mode.

    A core of Lowry, Butler, Gasol, along with Dragic, and Johnson gives them a very good start to giving Butler a chance to contend in the east.

    Infact with out even filling out the roster with a couple of role players I would say they would have a great chance to finish in the top 3-4 in the east. This would be an all in move for Miami to surround Butler with championship caliber vets in Lowry & Gasol, while keeping Dragic and Johnson.

    Essentially all they would need to do is round out their roster with a couple of depth pieces.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-01-2019 at 02:32 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    An example of how we can get good young players for our expiring vets to accelerate the inevitable rebuild.

    Trade with Miami.

    Justice Winslow (23)
    Tyler Hero (19)
    Bam Adebayo (22)
    Ollynyk (28)

    Dion Waiters - salary dump
    Myers Leonard- salary dump

    Total salary : $55mill

    For

    Lowry (34)
    Gasol (35)
    Isiah Tailor - filler
    Cameron Payne - filler

    Total salary: 61 mill


    Undesirable Contracts were taking back:

    - Waiters would be the only undesirable contracts on the roster. Waiters will make 12 million this year and next, but we take him in the deal to help salaries match and to help Miami dump him. Also Miami has the ability to absorb the difference in salary being sent over.

    - Ollynyk has a player option next year for 12 mill which is a great bargain for his services and I would hope he opts in to be a serviceable stretch big in the front court.

    What were left with:

    S.Johnson, RHJ, and Myers Leonard are all on one year contracts. Any of them could earn a role moving forward with strong performances in a contract year. Same could be said for Ibaka who is expiring as well. Or all could expire giving Masai a lot of cap flexibility next season.


    The new young core:
    Pascal Siakam (25)
    Fred Van Vleet (25)
    Justice Winslow (23)
    Bam Adebayo (22)
    OG Anunoby (22)
    Tyler Hero (19)

    The vets: Ibaka: Powell, Ollynyk

    The prospects: Thomas, T.Davis, Boucher, Hernandez

    This would be a great start. Not only do we have a young core with a ton of potential, we would also have lots of cap flexibility moving forward. Some might hate this deal as there are no star players, but I think the young players we receive have a lot of potential in Winslow, Hero, & Adebayao and could look great along side Siakam and FVV in nurses system with a wide open window to develop.
    You an I might have different expectations what we could get in a trade for our veterans. That deal looks so favorable from a Raptors perspective, I probably would make that deal, but I see no chance that Miami does. They just signed Butler and now they gut their entire young supporting cast for veterans on expiring deals? Winslow and Adebayo are already strong two way NBA players and both could get better still. I have tremendous respect for Lowry and Gasol, but your offer might not even make them better for next season.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    A lot of variables, but I can see how you got there.

    Philly bucks
    Boston raptors pacers.

    Everyone else.
    Basically. 6-8 in no order will probably be BKN, ATL, ORL/MIA/DET.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Its easy to get attached but one of the qualities that I love about Masai is that he is cerebral and will make the tough decisions that need to be made.

    While I share your sentiment for the players and their accomplishments with the team Im much more interested in the future of the team at this point. When DeRozan was traded i learned not to get attached. You have to be willing to pull the trigger for the betterment of the team.

    Im not saying its necessary to move all three of Lowry, Gasol, and or Ibaka. But if they all walked and we got nothing for them I wouldnt be happy.
    Masai gave a massive hint that Lowry isn't going anywhere with that legacy comment. I agree with what you're saying though. In my perfect World both Ibaka and Gasol get dealt. 1 of those guys (maybe both) is bound to fetch a 1st and Masai has proven he can draft well in the 20's.

    I wouldn't be mad if he dealt Lowry but it would be one of the most painful days ever as a Raptor fan. I was upset about DeMar for about 5 minutes all things considering. If Lowry gets dealt I'm putting my phone on silent when I get home from work and drinking alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    You an I might have different expectations what we could get in a trade for our veterans. That deal looks so favorable from a Raptors perspective, I probably would make that deal, but I see no chance that Miami does. They just signed Butler and now they gut their entire young supporting cast for veterans on expiring deals? Winslow and Adebayo are already strong two way NBA players and both could get better still. I have tremendous respect for Lowry and Gasol, but your offer might not even make them better for next season.
    I think youre understating the impact of Lowry and Gasol who were both instrumental in last years playoff run.

    Also my suggestion was just an example Miami has a lot of players and combinations that can be played with to come near a deal

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I think youre understating the impact of Lowry and Gasol who were both instrumental in last years playoff run.

    Also my suggestion was just an example Miami has a lot of players and combinations that can be played with to come near a deal
    I have great appreciation for both those players. So much so, I want Lowry's leadership to remain with the team long term and Gasol's to stay with us this season. But you are suggesting Miami gut their team to go all in for one year with them both. It would be very foolish of them IMO. I don't believe Raptors can get an offer like that for their veterans.

    I'm sure they could get some combination of draft picks, younger players with ceilings who were given too much money to young (ie. Wiggins) and/or a collection of decent role players. Maybe some combination of assets from the Heat would seem reasonable to suggest on their end(ie. Dragic, Olynyk, Adebayo, Leonard, Waiters), but I wouldn't make that deal. You get a piece in Adebayo that is exciting, but the contracts of Gasol and Lowry are so big you have to take a lot of "fluff" back. But now that we are negotiating, maybe if Herro was included I'd feel better about it. Waiters and Olynyk's expirings do lineup nice with 2021 free agency. If we meet closer to the middle you might have me convinced .

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    Heat would seem reasonable to suggest on their end(ie. Dragic, Olynyk, Adebayo, Leonard, Waiters), but I wouldn't make that deal. You get a piece in Adebayo that is exciting, but the contracts of Gasol and Lowry are so big you have to take a lot of "fluff" back. But now that we are negotiating, maybe if Herro was included I'd feel better about it. Waiters and Olynyk's expirings do lineup nice with 2021 free agency.
    I see of the names I suggested you simply left out Winslow and included Dragic lol... which goes back to my point that they have an abundance of players you can combine to make the deal work.

    Again, my suggestion was an example. Very rarely does anyone here agree on trade ideas but my point is that we can use these guys and flip them for younger assets before we lose them for nothing.

    For me its clear as day that its time for a rebuild and holding on to these old players for sentimental reasons doesnt help the team going forward.

    I think if the plan is to build around Siakam then that is exactly what the focus should be and we can get a head start on that rebuild by using some of these expirings to teams that want to compete now. Miami is the most desperate of that group and so naturally I suggested them but Id imagine

    Also take in that Lowry and Gasols valueIs as high as their very going to be right now and thats significant.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-01-2019 at 07:21 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    An example of how we can get good young players for our expiring vets to accelerate the inevitable rebuild.

    Trade with Miami.

    Justice Winslow (23)
    Tyler Hero (19)
    Bam Adebayo (22)
    Ollynyk (28)

    Dion Waiters - salary dump
    Myers Leonard- salary dump

    Total salary : $55mill

    For

    Lowry (34)
    Gasol (35)
    Isiah Tailor - filler
    Cameron Payne - filler

    Total salary: 61 mill


    Undesirable Contracts were taking back:

    - Waiters would be the only undesirable contracts on the roster. Waiters will make 12 million this year and next, but we take him in the deal to help salaries match and to help Miami dump him. Also Miami has the ability to absorb the difference in salary being sent over.

    - Ollynyk has a player option next year for 12 mill which is a great bargain for his services and I would hope he opts in to be a serviceable stretch big in the front court.

    What were left with:

    S.Johnson, RHJ, and Myers Leonard are all on one year contracts. Any of them could earn a role moving forward with strong performances in a contract year. Same could be said for Ibaka who is expiring as well. Or all could expire giving Masai a lot of cap flexibility next season.


    The new young core:
    Pascal Siakam (25)
    Fred Van Vleet (25)
    Justice Winslow (23)
    Bam Adebayo (22)
    OG Anunoby (22)
    Tyler Hero (19)

    The vets: Ibaka: Powell, Ollynyk

    The prospects: Thomas, T.Davis, Boucher, Hernandez

    This would be a great start. Not only do we have a young core with a ton of potential, we would also have lots of cap flexibility moving forward. Some might hate this deal as there are no star players, but I think the young players we receive have a lot of potential in Winslow, Hero, & Adebayao and could look great along side Siakam and FVV in nurses system with a wide open window to develop.
    I made a very similar trade in NBA2k. I am a big fan of herro. I think he could be like booker.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I see of the names I suggested you simply left out Winslow and included Dragic lol... which goes back to my point that they have an abundance of players you can combine to make the deal work.

    Again, my suggestion was an example. Very rarely does anyone here agree on trade ideas but my point is that we can use these guys and flip them for younger assets before we lose them for nothing.

    For me its clear as day that its time for a rebuild and holding on to these old players for sentimental reasons doesnt help the team going forward.

    I think if the plan is to build around Siakam then that is exactly what the focus should be and we can get a head start on that rebuild by using some of these expirings to teams that want to compete now. Miami is the most desperate of that group and so naturally I suggested them but Id imagine

    Also take in that Lowry and Gasols valueIs as high as their very going to be right now and thats significant.
    I think a lot higher of Winslow than Dragic for the record. Dragic is a 15-30 PG in this league and not really getting better anymore. Winslow is an exceptional 2 way player that can play PG in a pinch (with great success last year). One is a core piece in my opinion and was is an expiring contract to help bridge to FVV taking starting role. Very different value in my mind. I also didn't include Herro because I'm not convinced Heat would be willing to include him in a deal. If they met in the middle to include him, it is an interesting proposition. But the idea of Winslow, Herro and Adebayo (+ the useful roleplayers to include for contract purposes) I think they'd rightfully balk at.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I think a lot higher of Winslow than Dragic for the record. Dragic is a 15-30 PG in this league and not really getting better anymore. Winslow is an exceptional 2 way player that can play PG in a pinch (with great success last year). One is a core piece in my opinion and was is an expiring contract to help bridge to FVV taking starting role. Very different value in my mind. I also didn't include Herro because I'm not convinced Heat would be willing to include him in a deal. If they met in the middle to include him, it is an interesting proposition. But the idea of Winslow, Herro and Adebayo (+ the useful roleplayers to include for contract purposes) I think they'd rightfully balk at.
    Fair enough maybe that wasnt the best trade idea. But Ive got you thinking. So what do you think a fair trade would be to land Winslow? Id like to see some other options where we could land him and keep Siakam&FVV

    I completely agree with you about Winslow, hes the main guy I want back in the trade to pair up with Siakam as I think the two of them would work nicely together with their length. Also Id like to see Winslow start at the PG, hes a tall athletic player that can run the point and youre right he showed flashes there last year but Miami needs to dedicate him to the position in order for him to flourish in that role. Hes already stated him self that hes working to be the staring pg for them. Hes the most intriguing of all their trade assets.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-02-2019 at 12:03 PM.

  15. #30
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    It will all depend on where the Raptors are in the playoff picture. Masai has already stated that he's about winning and kind of dismissed rebuilding. I expect him to keep the team as is and possibly add if they look like they can compete with the Sixers and Bucks.

    Sent from my SM-A530W using Tapatalk
    Its about winning, Stoudemire said. You win, youre going to get on national TV. Simple. In Phoenix, we won Western Conference finals three, four years, playoffs every year. We won. If you dont win, nobody really wants to see you.

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