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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by killersweet View Post
    Yes attitude wise DD was better to the franchise. But it is not like Lowry was making an impact in the playoffs for the raptors in the prior years. To me DD and Lowry both failed when it mattered. Last year was an exception because we had a true superstar player step up and the team responded.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    The bolded is actually your opinion and quite arguable.

    Who said anything about loyalty? You are arguing a point I never made.

    I am voicing my opinion that Lowry has meant more to the culture of this franchise than any other player in history and that his legacy as a Raptor is worth preserving for the sustenance of that culture. You are welcome to disagree me (and you are, which is fine), but I'm not sure why you are asserting that it is somehow wrong to voice my opinions while asserting your own as factual and not to be argued (see bolded above).
    I never stated that your opinion was invalid infact I clearly stated that i respect everyoneís opinion to want to run it back with this squad even though my opinion is directly the opposite of that.

    When you compared Lowrys legacy treatment to Dirks I was simply stating the obvious facts that one player was legitimately a super star, a first option to a title run, a corner stone, and spent 21 years with his respective franchise and therefor I donít see Lowry in that light. Thatís what I meant by itís not arguable. One guy is top 5-10 all time for his position and the other guy isnít even top ten in the league for any position ever. Thatís not opinionated.

    What is an opinion is that ďLowry has meant more to the culture of this franchise than any other player in franchise historyĒ many could argue that it was Vince that put the raptors on the map, or Derozan who was the first to show loyalty to the organization. I agree with you that Lowry is among the most important for the sake of finding common ground Im just trying to clarify the difference.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    With that being said I totally respect you guys opinion of running it back Itís just my opinion that itís time for a rebuild
    Incase it was missed..

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Yes Lowry impacts the game a hell of a lot more than Derozan and is a better over all player but that margins isnít big enough to say heís closer to someone like Dirk. He isnít.
    Well now we have just gone full circle because pebloemer and I are saying yeah, he is.

    I mean look at your own words, do you secretly think DeRozan is ****? Because if not, "Lowry impacts the game a hell of a lot more than Derozan" should amount to a hell of a player. Your words dont quite add up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by killersweet View Post
    Yes attitude wise DD was better to the franchise. But it is not like Lowry was making an impact in the playoffs for the raptors in the prior years. To me DD and Lowry both failed when it mattered. Last year was an exception because we had a true superstar player step up and the team responded.
    He struggled to shoot at times but not nearly to the degree that DeRozan did. I cant believe after watching this postseason we are still failing to appreciate that his impact extends far beyond his shooting.

    And I dont want to pile on DeRozan here but under the pressure of the playoffs if your go to guy is consistently stinking that bad it puts an awful lot of pressure on a guy who isnt a natural scorer to pick up the slack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    One guy is top 5-10 all time for his position and the other guy isnít even top ten in the league for any position ever. Thatís not opinionated.
    Are you saying that Lowry has not been one of the 10 best PG's at any point in time? Because that is laughably false.


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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Are you saying that Lowry has not been one of the 10 best PG's at any point in time? Because that is laughably false.


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    All time or top 10 in the league over all.

    Dirk was top 10 in the league overall, probably top 5 even for certain seasons.

    And heís and Too 5-10 for his position all time. Some would put him in their top 5.

    Lowry has been a top 10 pg the last several years. But doesnít come close to the all time list.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-10-2019 at 09:32 PM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Well now we have just gone full circle because pebloemer and I are saying yeah, he is.

    I mean look at your own words, do you secretly think DeRozan is ****? Because if not, "Lowry impacts the game a hell of a lot more than Derozan" should amount to a hell of a player. Your words dont quite add up.

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    Hell of a player no doubt. Not on a superstars level though. Not comparable to a corner stone or first option to a championship team. If he was that he would have shown it in all those years prior to Leonard being here.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by killersweet View Post
    Yes attitude wise DD was better to the franchise. But it is not like Lowry was making an impact in the playoffs for the raptors in the prior years. To me DD and Lowry both failed when it mattered. Last year was an exception because we had a true superstar player step up and the team responded.
    He kinda was though. The narrative of him choking in the playoffs didn't really match reality. He got unfairly lumped in with DeRozan because of their friendship. He carried us over Miami into the ECF on our biggest run for example. Overall, his playoff numbers have been solid for a few years. It's DeRozan's that were abysmal.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    you know I donít make anything personal. When I say double standard itís because I see a double standard in what youíre saying. Itís not an attack on you. Maybe youíd realized that youíre being bias towards Lowry by me pointing it out. In any case I apologize if Iím not being open minded enough to your perspective.

    I think you and I did agree on something and that was Winslow. Letís get back to the heart of our discussion. What triggered my trade idea was the desire to have a long athletic point guard as our next starter at the position. Even if thatís two years down the line when Lowryís contract expires.

    You know as well as I do that the league has already went in that direction. We know the time is winding down on guys like a Lowry and Gasol so I was trying to gage what we all thought they could net us in a trade. I like Winslow so that was my trade idea. And I included Lowry because I think highly of his trade value. High enough to believe that we could get Winslow and Bam in return and even Hero I believe I included lol.
    It is only a double standard if you believe Lowry and DeRozan are the same. Clearly you know I don't share that belief at all . I don't consider that bias, I think it is clear that the numbers back that up. In fact, basing the opinion of players based on numbers actually takes bias out of the equation. I'd argue the bias comes when you ignore the numbers.

    The impact that each makes on the success of their respective teams is very different. We look at stats that detail the value of a player to team success by comparing how teams perform relative to the competition when one player is sitting or on the court and Lowry is consistently in the 10-15 range in the NBA. DeRozan is far in the distance. Its based on the numbers.

    To your topic on a long, athletic PG, I think there is something exciting about that idea in today's NBA. The defensive versatility that gives a team can be exciting. I expect we'll start seeing more of that in today's game. That being said, if you are smart, tough, can shoot and run an NBA offense, you can definitely succeed at the position. Lowry and VanVleet have proven that they can play above their size exceptionally well. It's a nice idea to go after a bigger, more athletic long term option, but I'm not sure it is fully needed. You risk a short-term drop in team performance which could be an issue if you want to be a factor in free agency in 2021.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    All time or top 10 in the league over all.

    Dirk was top 10 in the league overall, probably top 5 even for certain seasons.

    And heís and Too 5-10 for his position all time. Some would put him in their top 5.

    Lowry has been a top 10 pg the last several years. But doesnít come close to the all time list.
    Ok, I gotcha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Hell of a player no doubt. Not on a superstars level though. Not comparable to a corner stone or first option to a championship team. If he was that he would have shown it in all those years prior to Leonard being here.
    See, I think you are way to caught up in an old model of what a great basketball player looks like. How could a guy who has been so vital to a superb run that has lasted like 7 years and includes a championship not be viewed as a cornerstone.

    Because he did show it all these years. You are still attributing way too much to DD. Re-adjust your evaluation of DD based on what you now know and then look back at the rosters we had in the first 3-4 years when this thing popped. There wasnt much to work with and we've been a high seed ever since.

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    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 10-11-2019 at 09:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    See, I think you are way to caught up in an old model of what a great basketball player looks like. How could a guy who has been so vital to a superb run that has lasted like 7 years and includes a championship not be viewed as a cornerstone.

    Because he did show it all these years. You are still attributing way too much to DD. Re-adjust your evaluation of DD based on what you now know and then look back at the rosters we had in the first 3-4 years when this thing popped. There wasnt much to work with and we've been a high seed ever since.

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    I guess a question to ask in this situation... With Demar gone. With Kawhi (and Green) gone. Is this current team better than 2 years ago when Demar was here? I believe this current group is better

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    See, I think you are way to caught up in an old model of what a great basketball player looks like. How could a guy who has been so vital to a superb run that has lasted like 7 years and includes a championship not be viewed as a cornerstone.

    Because he did show it all these years. You are still attributing way too much to DD. Re-adjust your evaluation of DD based on what you now know and then look back at the rosters we had in the first 3-4 years when this thing popped. There wasnt much to work with and we've been a high seed ever since.

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    Iím not understating the importance of Lowrys impact, if I am itís not my intention. The league defines its superstars as the top elite. The first options, the guys that can carry a team to the finals. I felt that way about Kyle in the 2015-2016 season. But let me ask you who do you consider a super star today? The list canít be that long as it generally falls to the top 10 maybe top 15.

    Game 6 Round 2 Raptors vs Heat- I payed 800$ for those tickets and it was Lowrys best showing in any post season game when he put away the Heat to advance to the ECFís. Iíll have that memory for the rest of my life. At that point it was the furthest the raptors have ever gotten and Lowry was a terror through out that entire playoff run. It was because of him that we got that far, so I think in that season, which I believe was his best statistically he was very close to the top 10 and I would have considered him a superstar then based solely off his play.

    Iím interested to see if he can regain that form now that he doesnít have to defer to Leonard or DeMar, and Siakam will certainly need an option b offensively.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-11-2019 at 12:37 PM.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I guess a question to ask in this situation... With Demar gone. With Kawhi (and Green) gone. Is this current team better than 2 years ago when Demar was here? I believe this current group is better
    The tough part about that question is the fact that, that team lead by Lowry and DeMar did make it to the ECFís so that is the measuring stick for this team if weíre going to say theyíre better, getting that far will likely determine that.

    Also the main difference between this team and the team two years ago is that Siakam has emerged, whoís to say if Siakam who was a rookie two years ago didnít break out then, that that team wouldnít be more successful?

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