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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I guess a question to ask in this situation... With Demar gone. With Kawhi (and Green) gone. Is this current team better than 2 years ago when Demar was here? I believe this current group is better
    I don't think so but let's see.

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    “It’s about winning,” Stoudemire said. “You win, you’re going to get on national TV. Simple. In Phoenix, we won — Western Conference finals three, four years, playoffs every year. We won. If you don’t win, nobody really wants to see you.”

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    It is only a double standard if you believe Lowry and DeRozan are the same. Clearly you know I don't share that belief at all . I don't consider that bias, I think it is clear that the numbers back that up. In fact, basing the opinion of players based on numbers actually takes bias out of the equation. I'd argue the bias comes when you ignore the numbers.

    The impact that each makes on the success of their respective teams is very different. We look at stats that detail the value of a player to team success by comparing how teams perform relative to the competition when one player is sitting or on the court and Lowry is consistently in the 10-15 range in the NBA. DeRozan is far in the distance. Its based on the numbers.

    To your topic on a long, athletic PG, I think there is something exciting about that idea in today's NBA. The defensive versatility that gives a team can be exciting. I expect we'll start seeing more of that in today's game. That being said, if you are smart, tough, can shoot and run an NBA offense, you can definitely succeed at the position. Lowry and VanVleet have proven that they can play above their size exceptionally well. It's a nice idea to go after a bigger, more athletic long term option, but I'm not sure it is fully needed. You risk a short-term drop in team performance which could be an issue if you want to be a factor in free agency in 2021.
    I think where we went off track is the debate if Lowry is closer to Dirk or DeMar in talent and or in impact. Which is irrelevant because I think you we’re giving an example of why Masai is giving Kyle any sort of legacy treatment. I just got caught up with the player comparison which wasn’t the point at all. Is that fair to say ?

    I brought Derozan in as an example of someone who was here longer, and didn’t get the legacy treatment but instead was traded for the betterment of the team, which brings me back to my trade suggestion, I was suggesting the trade for the betterment of the team going fwd, with the same mind state that if we could trade Derozan after 9 years, then we could likely trade Lowry after 8 if the right deal was there to make the team better moving fwd. now that he’s no longer an expiring that def makes me feel better because it means we don’t have to lose him for nothing which if you remember was one of my initial concerns, losing some of these guys for nothing gives me Mcgrady nightmares. Yes I’m old enough to remember that too lol
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-11-2019 at 01:31 PM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    He kinda was though. The narrative of him choking in the playoffs didn't really match reality. He got unfairly lumped in with DeRozan because of their friendship. He carried us over Miami into the ECF on our biggest run for example. Overall, his playoff numbers have been solid for a few years. It's DeRozan's that were abysmal.
    You have to remember the full body of work, Lowry was hobbling in to the playoffs injured more often then not and that had a lot to do with Casey running him in to the ground through the season leading the league in minutes played. Casey was nuts in that regard because Lowry barely ever made it through 82 games if ever in his career. There were several playoffs’ where Lowry struggled as a result. It wasn’t just that he was lumped in with Derozan due to their friendship. He was never as bad as Derozan though.

    I remember the 2015-16 playoff run where he was an absolute beast! Lost my voice for 2 weeks after game 6 vs Miami
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-11-2019 at 01:30 PM.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Ok, I gotcha.

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    The debate here was to do with rebuilding or running it back. It was only derailed by the Derozan topic because we were talking about legacy, and tenure etc ..

    the Derozan debate has been beaten to death and we’re on the same side of the fence where his game is concerned. I don’t think he’s as bad as you do, but there’s nothing in his game that justifies me defending it either. I just liked that he could draw a foul at will.. that was until the post season
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-14-2019 at 10:49 AM.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I think where we went off track is the debate if Lowry is closer to Dirk or DeMar in talent and or in impact. Which is irrelevant because I think you we’re giving an example of why Masai is giving Kyle any sort of legacy treatment. I just got caught up with the player comparison which wasn’t the point at all. Is that fair to say ?
    I'll take that as a reasonable summary of the core issues we've gone back and forth on. When someone cites an example of a player it doesn't necessarily mean they are starting a player comparison, just setting an agreeable parameter on when a course of action is sensible. I mean, player comparisons aside, Lowry to me is the key figure that took this team from perennial lottery team to contender. From the moment he was acquired, we consistently got better and expectations increased year after year. So much so that Masai pushed his chips in the table and traded a beloved Raptor for a 1 chance to win it all. Lowry was the quintessential figure that motivated that trade in my mind. He played great in the playoffs and I'm confident we dont win without him. Any championship has many ingredients of course. Powell was awesome against Milwaukee, Kawhi carried us past Philly, Siakam had standout moments throughout, FVV was an all star caliber player for the final few games against Milwaukee and the entire GS series. But of all players in the mix, Lowry embodies the championship more than any other in my mind.

    An average team will win a championship once every 30 years. With teams like LAL, SAS, GS and BOS winning as often as they have, it is close to once every 40 years for the average team. That's longer than most here have been alive and longer than this franchise has existed. It isn't even so much about player comparisons. My contention is that when you win, you've already create something to preserve and sustain. What you've done is already greater than asset management in my opinion.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I guess a question to ask in this situation... With Demar gone. With Kawhi (and Green) gone. Is this current team better than 2 years ago when Demar was here? I believe this current group is better
    It seems unlikely. They would need some serious improvement from one of anunoby/powell or vanvleet. It feels almost greedy to expect further masai miracles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    It seems unlikely. They would need some serious improvement from one of anunoby/powell or vanvleet. It feels almost greedy to expect further masai miracles.

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    Siakam from 2 years ago vs. Siakam this coming year might be the biggest difference.

    Gasol vs. JV is an interesting and debatable consideration.

    Has Powell gotten better? Will he be better? FVV?

    Will OG be better than he was 2 years ago?

    Loads of things that could impact the equation.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I guess a question to ask in this situation... With Demar gone. With Kawhi (and Green) gone. Is this current team better than 2 years ago when Demar was here? I believe this current group is better
    My guess would be worse as a regular season team, but better playoff team. Hard to tell without seeing them play yet tho.


  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I'll take that as a reasonable summary of the core issues we've gone back and forth on. When someone cites an example of a player it doesn't necessarily mean they are starting a player comparison, just setting an agreeable parameter on when a course of action is sensible. I mean, player comparisons aside, Lowry to me is the key figure that took this team from perennial lottery team to contender. From the moment he was acquired, we consistently got better and expectations increased year after year. So much so that Masai pushed his chips in the table and traded a beloved Raptor for a 1 chance to win it all. Lowry was the quintessential figure that motivated that trade in my mind. He played great in the playoffs and I'm confident we dont win without him. Any championship has many ingredients of course. Powell was awesome against Milwaukee, Kawhi carried us past Philly, Siakam had standout moments throughout, FVV was an all star caliber player for the final few games against Milwaukee and the entire GS series. But of all players in the mix, Lowry embodies the championship more than any other in my mind.

    An average team will win a championship once every 30 years. With teams like LAL, SAS, GS and BOS winning as often as they have, it is close to once every 40 years for the average team. That's longer than most here have been alive and longer than this franchise has existed. It isn't even so much about player comparisons. My contention is that when you win, you've already create something to preserve and sustain. What you've done is already greater than asset management in my opinion.
    The nba is only about 70 years old. I still don’t think it’s absolutely necessary to preserve Lowrys legacy in terms of keeping him here. If it means making the team better I pull the trigger. Masai is a gun slinger I wouldn’t be surprised by any moves at any point this year.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-14-2019 at 11:54 AM.

  10. #115
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    Anyone else finding it harder than normal to get excited for this season?

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    Anyone else finding it harder than normal to get excited for this season?
    Yea. I went to game 1 of the finals and going to the ring ceremony. But I do find it hard to watch 82 games again.

    I will say I am excited about the team but since so many guys are FAs, I rather see them get traded but we'll still be a top 4 seed so probably not gonna happen.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    Yea. I went to game 1 of the finals and going to the ring ceremony. But I do find it hard to watch 82 games again.

    I will say I am excited about the team but since so many guys are FAs, I rather see them get traded but we'll still be a top 4 seed so probably not gonna happen.
    I checked tickets for the ring ceremony and it’s expensive as hell. But you do get to watch the young pelicans. They’re going to be an exciting team to watch.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    Anyone else finding it harder than normal to get excited for this season?
    Absolutely

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    Yea. I went to game 1 of the finals and going to the ring ceremony. But I do find it hard to watch 82 games again.

    I will say I am excited about the team but since so many guys are FAs, I rather see them get traded but we'll still be a top 4 seed so probably not gonna happen.
    Have fun!

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