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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    We are a very inconsistent team from hitting to our starting rotation to our bullpen. I still think we should have gotten another starting pitcher. I like the team, but this isnt a sustainable team. We need a lot forward, but we dont have the funding to do so. Which is why I wanted a tear down, quick rebuild.
    For me, just making the playoffs every year, gives us a chance, and really a pretty equal chance.

    Our offense is very inconsistent, but the talent is there to be a top tiered offensive team. But so many players are underperforming their talent levels.

    The rotation and bullpen have actually not only been consistent, but have been consistently great. The rotation started the season pitching pretty poorly, but since June 1 have been one of the better pitching teams in baseball top to bottom.

    The issue is, our offense will score 9 one night, and then 2 the next night. I actually think our issue is that we hit too few home runs, and try to manufacture too many runs. We score more runs not via home run compared to the rest of the league, and every team that manufactures at a greater rate than us isn't anywhere near the playoffs. We need more power in our lineup, and more .500+ slugging percentage hitters. Carpenter, Goldie, and Ozuna were all supposed to be that, and none are. I think that's a simple fix entering next year though.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Again, we differ in opinion. Id rather do a quick rebuild and you wouldnt.

    Our offense is too inconsistent. If they arent hot out of their minds, they are terrible. Theres no in between.
    The only teams I can think of that went through a rebuild and came out with a successful rebuild are the Cubs and Astros. There are about 15 teams that have been rebuilding for awhile, and when they have tried to put it all together, they have failed.
    White Sox, Tigers, O's, Pirates, Reds, Padres, Phillies, etc.

    You aren't guaranteed anything by rebuilding, and you can easily be stuck in an awful situation for a very long time if that happens.

    None of those teams have anything to be looking forward to in the near future except maybe the Padres. And they are all in on Hosmer and Machado, so it better work, otherwise they are going to be really bad really soon for a very long time.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    The only teams I can think of that went through a rebuild and came out with a successful rebuild are the Cubs and Astros. There are about 15 teams that have been rebuilding for awhile, and when they have tried to put it all together, they have failed.
    White Sox, Tigers, O's, Pirates, Reds, Padres, Phillies, etc.

    You aren't guaranteed anything by rebuilding, and you can easily be stuck in an awful situation for a very long time if that happens.

    None of those teams have anything to be looking forward to in the near future except maybe the Padres. And they are all in on Hosmer and Machado, so it better work, otherwise they are going to be really bad really soon for a very long time.
    Yanks also

    Quick rebuild - Trade Wong, Cmart, JMart, Fowler (I think teams will be interested) and guys like Oneill and one of Ray A or Thomas.

    We can get prospects back, call the ones up that are close to ready, not sign anyone this offseason.

    Then you roll next year with our young guys, Knizner, Carlson, Edman, Bader Thomas/Ray A paired with a couple vets in Goldie, Carp, DeJong, we may compete, we may not. But then 2021 rolls around, our guys have experience, our farm system is stocked and we will have plenty of financial flexibility. If we took that route, I would 100% be a happy camper
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Yanks also
    When did the Yanks rebuild?


    The last time they were under .500 was 1992, and they only 'rebuilt' because Stiebrenner was banned from baseball and they didn't spend money in his absence. They didn't do anything to rebuild or tank.

    Jeter was their only reasonably high draft pick (6th). Everybody else was either signed internationally, or drafted way later (Posada was a 24th rounder, Pettitte a 22nd rounder for example)



    Quick rebuild - Trade Wong, Cmart, JMart, Fowler (I think teams will be interested) and guys like Oneill and one of Ray A or Thomas.
    I don't see them trading any but maybe one of those guys (O'Neill)

    Nobody wants Fowler without us paying him for them. Nobody wants JMart, like at all. Wong would have a nice value, but that's putting a lot on the Edman future portal. And Randy A and Thomas have 6 years of control, they are the types of guys you'd want to be trading for, not away.

    We can get prospects back, call the ones up that are close to ready, not sign anyone this offseason.

    Then you roll next year with our young guys, Knizner, Carlson, Edman, Bader Thomas/Ray A paired with a couple vets in Goldie, Carp, DeJong, we may compete, we may not. But then 2021 rolls around, our guys have experience, our farm system is stocked and we will have plenty of financial flexibility. If we took that route, I would 100% be a happy camper
    I'm not opposed to doing a rebuild, when it makes sense.

    We are in the playoffs right now and a huge majority of our team is back next year, and that's with guys massively under performing their expectations (like Carpenter, Mikolas, and Goldie)

    I find it silly to rebuild when we are likely a 90+ win team next year with the same roster.


    You ever think that maybe you are just a pessimist about the team?

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    When did the Yanks rebuild?


    The last time they were under .500 was 1992, and they only 'rebuilt' because Stiebrenner was banned from baseball and they didn't spend money in his absence. They didn't do anything to rebuild or tank.

    Jeter was their only reasonably high draft pick (6th). Everybody else was either signed internationally, or drafted way later (Posada was a 24th rounder, Pettitte a 22nd rounder for example)




    I don't see them trading any but maybe one of those guys (O'Neill)

    Nobody wants Fowler without us paying him for them. Nobody wants JMart, like at all. Wong would have a nice value, but that's putting a lot on the Edman future portal. And Randy A and Thomas have 6 years of control, they are the types of guys you'd want to be trading for, not away.



    I'm not opposed to doing a rebuild, when it makes sense.

    We are in the playoffs right now and a huge majority of our team is back next year, and that's with guys massively under performing their expectations (like Carpenter, Mikolas, and Goldie)

    I find it silly to rebuild when we are likely a 90+ win team next year with the same roster.


    You ever think that maybe you are just a pessimist about the team?
    I know they wont trade any. I'm not saying they will. I'm just saying a small rebuild would be nice. And the yanks did rebuild a couple years ago
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    I know they wont trade any. I'm not saying they will. I'm just saying a small rebuild would be nice. And the yanks did rebuild a couple years ago
    They haven't been under .500 in almost 30 years, when did they rebuild?

    You talking about 2016 when they traded away their expiring contracts since they weren't likely to make the playoffs?

    That's not a rebuild, that's just selling guys that will likely walk in free agency. They never rebuilt anything. Miller, Nova, Chapman, and Beltran weren't part of 2017, except they did sign Chapman back.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    They haven't been under .500 in almost 30 years, when did they rebuild?

    You talking about 2016 when they traded away their expiring contracts since they weren't likely to make the playoffs?

    That's not a rebuild, that's just selling guys that will likely walk in free agency. They never rebuilt anything. Miller, Nova, Chapman, and Beltran weren't part of 2017, except they did sign Chapman back.
    Then retool, or send a prospect with a bad contract. I dont care what the hell you call it. The yanks made some trades to get what they have now
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Then retool, or send a prospect with a bad contract. I dont care what the hell you call it. The yanks made some trades to get what they have now
    We did that when we traded away Pham, Mercado, and Voit.

    Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    We did that when we traded away Pham, Mercado, and Voit.

    Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't.
    Absolutely not the same
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Absolutely not the same
    That was absolutely, 100% exactly the same.

    They re-tooled. They traded away several current performers for future performers.

    They moved Voit for Gallegos and Shreve
    Moved Pham for 3 prospects to open playing time for other outfielders
    And moved Mercado for prospects further away that wouldn't need to be protected from the 40 man roster as soon as Mercado.

    What you are asking for, the team did just two years ago, and fans have been regretting it ever since.

    That was them re-tooling. If they did that again, it could easily have the same results, or have results like when the Yankees did it in 2016. Re-tooling is moving a handful of players you don't have long term plans for, and moving them for other players who can help you address other problems in the long term you think may be coming.

    A rebuild is a straight up tank job, you unload any valuable asset for assets that can have a higher value long term.
    A re-tool is moving some valuable assets, for other types of assets with longer windows of value.

    Pham, for example, was one of our better players and he still had 4 years of control. But we moved him for 3 prospects. Voit didn't have a place on the team, and Mercado was in a loaded outfield and needed to be added to the 40 man, which we didn't have room to add him.

    So they found other types of players to fill in those needs that the organization felt they would have long term.

    That was 100% a re-tooling. Exactly what you are asking for here.

  11. #146
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    Which would Cards fans rather have in 2020?


    Marcel Ozuna for 3/$55M
    Or Zack Wheeler for 4/$94M

    Not that I think either will be a Cardinal next year, but that's Sportrac's market value on both


    With Ozuna ($18.3M would exhaust about 90% of our available budget or so)
    26 man roster

    C - Molina
    1B - Goldie
    2B - Wong
    SS - DeJong
    3B - Carpenter
    LF - Ozuna
    CF - Bader
    RF - Fowler

    Bench
    C - Knizner/Wieters
    Util - Edman
    1B/OF - Martinez
    OF - Thomas
    Util - Munoz or someone else

    Rotation
    1. Flaherty
    2. Martinez
    3. Hudson
    4. Mikolas
    5. Wainwright (assuming he gets the same deal next year)

    Bullpen
    Long - Ponce
    R - Brebbia
    R - Gant
    L - Miller
    L - Webb
    R - Helsley
    R - Hicks
    R - Fernandez

    Outfield depth in AAA
    O'Neill (if not traded for a reliever)
    Williams
    Arozarena
    Capel
    Carlson


    Rotation depth in AAA
    Reyes
    Gomber
    Woodford
    Cruz


    With Wheeler ($23.5M would exhaust all of our money available)
    26 man roster

    C - Molina
    1B - Goldie
    2B - Wong
    SS - DeJong
    3B - Carpenter
    LF - O'Neill
    CF - Bader
    RF - Fowler

    Bench
    C - Knizner/Wieters
    Util - Edman
    1B/OF - Martinez
    OF - Thomas
    Util - Munoz or someone else

    Rotation
    1. Flaherty
    2. Wheeler
    3. Martinez
    4. Hudson
    5. Mikolas

    Bullpen
    Long - Ponce
    R - Brebbia
    R - Gant
    L - Miller
    L - Webb
    R - Helsley
    R - Hicks
    R - Ferandez

    Outfield depth in AAA
    Williams
    Arozarena
    Capel
    Carlson


    Rotation depth in AAA
    Reyes
    Gomber
    Woodford
    Cruz

    Wainwright wouldn't be brought back in this second scenario because his money was spent on the gap from Ozuna to Wheeler

    Which team is better?
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 09-26-2019 at 02:07 PM.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    That was absolutely, 100% exactly the same.

    They re-tooled. They traded away several current performers for future performers.

    They moved Voit for Gallegos and Shreve
    Moved Pham for 3 prospects to open playing time for other outfielders
    And moved Mercado for prospects further away that wouldn't need to be protected from the 40 man roster as soon as Mercado.

    What you are asking for, the team did just two years ago, and fans have been regretting it ever since.

    That was them re-tooling. If they did that again, it could easily have the same results, or have results like when the Yankees did it in 2016. Re-tooling is moving a handful of players you don't have long term plans for, and moving them for other players who can help you address other problems in the long term you think may be coming.

    A rebuild is a straight up tank job, you unload any valuable asset for assets that can have a higher value long term.
    A re-tool is moving some valuable assets, for other types of assets with longer windows of value.

    Pham, for example, was one of our better players and he still had 4 years of control. But we moved him for 3 prospects. Voit didn't have a place on the team, and Mercado was in a loaded outfield and needed to be added to the 40 man, which we didn't have room to add him.

    So they found other types of players to fill in those needs that the organization felt they would have long term.

    That was 100% a re-tooling. Exactly what you are asking for here.
    They got rid of bad contracts and got very good prospects. We got rid of no bad contracts and didnt get anyone along the lines of Torres
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Which would Cards fans rather have in 2020?


    Marcel Ozuna for 3/$55M
    Or Zack Wheeler for 4/$94M

    Not that I think either will be a Cardinal next year, but that's Sportrac's market value on both


    With Ozuna ($18.3M would exhaust about 90% of our available budget or so)
    26 man roster

    C - Molina
    1B - Goldie
    2B - Wong
    SS - DeJong
    3B - Carpenter
    LF - Ozuna
    CF - Bader
    RF - Fowler

    Bench
    C - Knizner/Wieters
    Util - Edman
    1B/OF - Martinez
    OF - Thomas
    Util - Munoz or someone else

    Rotation
    1. Flaherty
    2. Martinez
    3. Hudson
    4. Mikolas
    5. Wainwright (assuming he gets the same deal next year)

    Bullpen
    Long - Ponce
    R - Brebbia
    R - Gant
    L - Miller
    L - Webb
    R - Helsley
    R - Hicks
    R - Fernandez

    Outfield depth in AAA
    O'Neill (if not traded for a reliever)
    Williams
    Arozarena
    Capel
    Carlson


    Rotation depth in AAA
    Reyes
    Gomber
    Woodford
    Cruz


    With Wheeler ($23.5M would exhaust all of our money available)
    26 man roster

    C - Molina
    1B - Goldie
    2B - Wong
    SS - DeJong
    3B - Carpenter
    LF - O'Neill
    CF - Bader
    RF - Fowler

    Bench
    C - Knizner/Wieters
    Util - Edman
    1B/OF - Martinez
    OF - Thomas
    Util - Munoz or someone else

    Rotation
    1. Flaherty
    2. Wheeler
    3. Martinez
    4. Hudson
    5. Mikolas

    Bullpen
    Long - Ponce
    R - Brebbia
    R - Gant
    L - Miller
    L - Webb
    R - Helsley
    R - Hicks
    R - Ferandez

    Outfield depth in AAA
    Williams
    Arozarena
    Capel
    Carlson


    Rotation depth in AAA
    Reyes
    Gomber
    Woodford
    Cruz

    Wainwright wouldn't be brought back in this second scenario because his money was spent on the gap from Ozuna to Wheeler

    Which team is better?
    I'm not a big fan of the 2nd one, and the first is the same exact team as this year pretty much. I dont really like either of them
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    They got rid of bad contracts and got very good prospects. We got rid of no bad contracts and didnt get anyone along the lines of Torres
    None of those guys were bad contracts, they were expiring contracts

    We don't have any expiring contracts that anyone would want except this year, we could have traded Ozuna.

    Next year, we have Molina and Cecil.

    The Yankees had Nova, Beltran, Miller, and Chapman that they could trade from. We don't have that.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    None of those guys were bad contracts, they were expiring contracts

    We don't have any expiring contracts that anyone would want except this year, we could have traded Ozuna.

    Next year, we have Molina and Cecil.

    The Yankees had Nova, Beltran, Miller, and Chapman that they could trade from. We don't have that.
    Fair enough
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

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