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  1. #5506
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    Quote Originally Posted by a60rdie View Post
    Run better and not fumble when he does run...
    I would include fumbling the ball over the goal line for a touch back twice in a career as a need to RUN BETTER not being a dumbass is kinda included also. I did a breakdown at the time of the second one compared to Aaron Rogers taking a similar play into end zone. Rogers didn't need to use pure speed to post he fainted a pass twice as he ran thus holding the defender momentarily. SMART always wins

  2. #5507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector View Post
    Nowhere near the same opportunity totally different situations. George couldn't run if his life depended upon it. Grudens scheme required QB to run. He played 7 games for Gruden in 98 and had 2 runs for 8 yards, was gone to Minny in 99 not a good sample size for comparison either. 99 The roster made some significant changes Kaufman gone Wheatley starter. Gannon flourished in Grudens system and All roster of talent.

    in 1999QB Rich Gannon* 34 12 16 304 for 515, 3,840 yards, 24 td, 14 int, & 46 rushes for 298 yards and 2 t

    Gannon was 34 before he even got close to his best in the right system and Coach with the right talent around him.

    I love the way people rewrite history to tell their current narrative total BS.

    FACTS
    I think most romanticize Gannon (I am guilty of it as much) because it really is the blip success the past 30 years and we all want to hold unto it. You do make points are that are valid the team that was built at the time. However, to be fair, I do think that although Gannon came into a great situation, he was obviously not the same QB he was in Minnesota. So what changed? You cannot discount the improvement that Gannon achieved. Question is how was he able to do so. A guesstimation but seems that Gruden, the system, and the players around him did help Gannon reach his potential. Oddly enough it took a team to get to that point.

  3. #5508
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog2683 View Post
    I think most romanticize Gannon (I am guilty of it as much) because it really is the blip success the past 30 years and we all want to hold unto it. You do make points are that are valid the team that was built at the time. However, to be fair, I do think that although Gannon came into a great situation, he was obviously not the same QB he was in Minnesota. So what changed? You cannot discount the improvement that Gannon achieved. Question is how was he able to do so. A guesstimation but seems that Gruden, the system, and the players around him did help Gannon reach his potential. Oddly enough it took a team to get to that point.
    I would argue that Gannon had come around as a player by the time he was in KC, and should have displaced Grbac as the starter the year he won 5 straight games to take the Chiefs into the playoffs at 13-3. For some unfathomable reason they went back to Elvis and it burned them.

    He really did look like he'd finally put things together. Of course, he was already on the other side of 30 by then, but he's not the first QB to need years of experience to get better, as a large chunk of the job is between the ears.

  4. #5509
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog2683 View Post
    I think most romanticize Gannon (I am guilty of it as much) because it really is the blip success the past 30 years and we all want to hold unto it. You do make points are that are valid the team that was built at the time. However, to be fair, I do think that although Gannon came into a great situation, he was obviously not the same QB he was in Minnesota. So what changed? You cannot discount the improvement that Gannon achieved. Question is how was he able to do so. A guesstimation but seems that Gruden, the system, and the players around him did help Gannon reach his potential. Oddly enough it took a team to get to that point.
    Im sorry if I gave the impression I was taking anything away from Gannon, I am not, I am huge fan of his play under Gruden. My point is, and always is, its a team game people totally overplay the individual aspects of the game. They all fluorished in support of each other. Teams fail inspite of each other.

  5. #5510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector View Post
    Im sorry if I gave the impression I was taking anything away from Gannon, I am not, I am huge fan of his play under Gruden. My point is, and always is, its a team game people totally overplay the individual aspects of the game. They all fluorished in support of each other. Teams fail inspite of each other.
    You did not give that impression. I was simply following up with my thoughts about it.

  6. #5511
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    Itís time to move on from Carr

    The Raiders always has talent in those days. Gruden & Gannon changed the culture and won football games.

    Great QBís elevate the entire team. Gannon was a great one as a Raider.

    The need to discredit his achievements to defend Carr is unbecoming. You people are ready to burn the entire organization to the ground in an attempt to deflect accountability and criticism from your boy.

    I have seen the legacy of HOF players desecrated on this thread when those examples may contradict the Derek Carr narrative.

    I find it very disturbing to see so called ďfansĒ toss Raider legends under the bus to justify the failings of a particular player. I am bewildered by it...


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    Last edited by Proximo; 05-02-2020 at 02:02 PM.

  7. #5512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proximo View Post
    The Raiders always has talent in those days. Gruden & Gannon changed the culture and won football games.

    Great QBís elevate the entire team. Gannon was a great one as a Raider.

    Itís laughable that some feel the need to discredit his achievements to defend Carr. You people are ready to torch the entire organization in an attempt to deflect accountability and criticism from your boy.

    I have seen HOF careers desecrated on this thread when those examples may contradict the Derek Carr narrative.

    I find it very puzzling and question the motives.



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    I do not think anyone is discounting the "as a Raider." The subject for me was the before and how he got to be there. Why was he not able to elevate Minnesota and the Chiefs? Honest question, if you can provide your thoughts on that.

  8. #5513
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    Itís time to move on from Carr

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog2683 View Post
    I do not think anyone is discounting the "as a Raider." The subject for me was the before and how he got to be there. Why was he not able to elevate Minnesota and the Chiefs? Honest question, if you can provide your thoughts on that.
    Very good question. I really donít know why things didnít work out in Minnesota for Rich Gannon. He led the team to the playoffs in 1992. I have friends that are Viking fans and they liked him. Denny Green didnít. I hear Rich Gannon could be difficult to get along with.

    He was injured in Washington.

    Kansas City seemed to be a different story. The team seemed to play well for him. Marcus Allen and Derrick Thomas spoke well of him. Paul Hackett (one of Jon Grudenís mentors) was Gannonís OC in Kansas City and gave Gannon a ringing endorsement when Gruden inquired about him.

    It must have been a personality thing between be (Gannon) and Schottenheimer?

    Timing can be everything in life.

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    Last edited by Proximo; 05-02-2020 at 02:20 PM.

  9. #5514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proximo View Post
    High horse? Get a grip. I am simply tired of my discussion points being twisted around for the sake of stoking petty arguments. Some of you people are so butt hurt by this Carr conversation that you would argue with the pizza delivery man about it while he is handing you a free pizza that I sent to your front porch.

    You still donít get it. I saw essentially the same football teams flip a switch when the right QB was inserted into Grudenís offense. Randall Cunningham was an All Pro talent. The 1995 Eagles struggled until Rodney Peete stepped in. Same roster. You follow?

    Remember Jeff George being sacked 10 times in the 1998 season opener? That same team was competitive the rest of the season with healthy Donald Hollis playing QB. Same roster-same talent. Donald Freakin Hollas. Comprende?...

    Hypothetically speaking do the 2019 Raiders make the playoffs with Rich Gannon as the QB? Doubtful the roster has too many holes. Is the team more competitive week in and week out? Absolutely.

    I have watched repeatedly over the years how the right QB can make Grudenís offense click and how keeping that offense on schedule enhances the overall play of the team.


    Again, itís not that difficult.


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    Wow. You bring up examples with Randall who was injured during those seasons and never quite played the same? Sure he was great before that... but injuries played a big part with the ultra-athletic QB. And you can always bring up examples going both ways.

    Now... how hypocritical to you really want to be? You complain that I twisted your argument- which I never even quoted you... and didnít even argue against your point. Just stated that the rest of the team should be considered in these cases.

    Yet you are so ďbutt hurtĒ with your carr/anti carr debate, that you quoted me AND twisted it around. I never said coaching wasnít part of the equation. Just that the rest of the team needs to be factored in as well. I mean honestly... how can you attribute all of Gannonís success to the coaching when he also went to a team that was better all around.

    So what part of your argument did I twist? Please let me know...

    Now i know some of you hate carr. And some of you love carr. Most of us are somewhere in between. And like my original statement alluded to- this year will be a great year to finally be able to compare apples to apples.

  10. #5515
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    Oh... and saying Gannon would have more success than Carr did the last few years is like saying carr would have had more success than Gannon on the loaded raiders teams of the past. Whatís the point? Thereís no way to prove it. Just an imaginary situation to prove a point... 😂 classic.

  11. #5516
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarOutIos View Post
    Wow. You bring up examples with Randall who was injured during those seasons and never quite played the same? Sure he was great before that... but injuries played a big part with the ultra-athletic QB. And you can always bring up examples going both ways.

    Now... how hypocritical to you really want to be? You complain that I twisted your argument- which I never even quoted you... and didnít even argue against your point. Just stated that the rest of the team should be considered in these cases.

    Yet you are so ďbutt hurtĒ with your carr/anti carr debate, that you quoted me AND twisted it around. I never said coaching wasnít part of the equation. Just that the rest of the team needs to be factored in as well. I mean honestly... how can you attribute all of Gannonís success to the coaching when he also went to a team that was better all around.

    So what part of your argument did I twist? Please let me know...

    Now i know some of you hate carr. And some of you love carr. Most of us are somewhere in between. And like my original statement alluded to- this year will be a great year to finally be able to compare apples to apples.
    If people like you are going to minimize what Gannon did, trash on Jim Plunkettís career or take a rattle can and deface Ken Stablers HOF bust in Canton while attempting to square your Derek Carr narrative do you really expect to be taken seriously?


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  12. #5517
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    Quite honestly, my take on the whole thing is that we overemphasize Gannonís part in the success. I think gruden is actually the biggest factor. Thatís how carr has actually produced good numbers with a lack receivers.

    Now again- Iím not defending carr. Quite the opposite. I think carr is just average to above average. And if gruden can get Gannon to perform like a goat with great talent on the rest of the team. And he can get carr to produce good ďnumbersĒ with a lack of receiver talent. Then what can he do with an elite QB. What would this team look like with Aaron Rogers on it for example...

  13. #5518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proximo View Post
    If people like you are going to minimize what Gannon did, trash on Jim Plunkettís career or take a rattle can and deface Ken Stablers HOF bust in Canton while attempting to square your Derek Carr narrative do you really expect to be taken seriously?


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    Derek Carr narrative? 😂 😂

    Youíre so anti carr that you donít even try and understand peopleís points once ANYTHING is mentioned that even sounds ďpro-carrĒ.

  14. #5519
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    Itís time to move on from Carr

    Quote Originally Posted by FarOutIos View Post
    Quite honestly, my take on the whole thing is that we overemphasize Gannonís part in the success. I think gruden is actually the biggest factor. Thatís how carr has actually produced good numbers with a lack receivers.

    Now again- Iím not defending carr. Quite the opposite. I think carr is just average to above average. And if gruden can get Gannon to perform like a goat with great talent on the rest of the team. And he can get carr to produce good ďnumbersĒ with a lack of receiver talent. Then what can he do with an elite QB. What would this team look like with Aaron Rogers on it for example...
    I agree entirely. Gannonís success was in large part because of Gruden and much to Al Davisís chagrin Gannonís forgettable Super Bowl performance was also in large part because of Gruden.

    But...it takes a certain type of player to succeed as a QB under Gruden and having followed Jonís career in the NFL there seems to be certain character and athletic traits that run consistent with that success.

    Those traits often are contrary to what many emphasize in what an NFL QB should be.

    Gannon possessed them all. Carr lacks a few of them hence my concern.

    I am laying the destroying legacies part a bit too thick. I am sorry youíre a long time fan and bleed silver & black as much as the rest of us.

    My concern should not be confused with hatred.

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    Last edited by Proximo; 05-02-2020 at 03:25 PM.

  15. #5520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proximo View Post
    I agree entirely. Gannonís success was in large part because of Gruden and much to Al Davisís chagrin Gannonís forgettable Super Bowl performance was also in large part because of Gruden.

    But...it takes a certain type of player to succeed as a QB under Gruden and having followed Jonís career in the NFL there seems to be certain character and athletic traits that run consistent with that success.

    Those traits often are contrary to what many emphasize in what an NFL QB should be.

    Gannon possessed them all. Carr lacks a few of them hence my concern.

    My concern should not be confused with hatred.

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    Nobody cares for your concern

    If Gruden was so concerned Carr wasn't his type of QB, he would have been long gone. Yet here we are, year 3 under Gruden.

    You can continue to push whatever clueless narrative you have next. Nothing will change the fact that Carr is Grudens QB

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