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  1. #7741
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    Does that mean that they just got the throw off? How about completion rate under pressure?
    Those numbers might be interesting to find out, but ultimately I think you'll find that even the best QBs falter if they're constantly under the gun. I mean, Brady lost two SBs (and should have lost a 3rd) when he played mediocre against defenses who were able to pressure him. Even Mahomes, who would probably rank very highly amongst guys who can get away from pressure, couldn't get his team into the end zone in the most recent SB.

    Sure you don't want a guy who completely panics every time he's pressured and just throws it up for INTs all the time. And it's nice to have guys who know how to either buy time, or can get rid of it quickly and accurately. But even if you have someone who's the absolute top of the heap against pressure, if you ask him to do it all game long, then 1) he likely won't have a particularly great game even if he's a future HoF QB, 2) he'll get hurt, or 3) he'll wear down as the game goes on. No QB, not even Mahomes, can expect to run away from pressure for 4 quarters.

    The highlight plays where these QBs deliver big plays under pressure in big games is great and all, but if those teams were asking their QB to do that all the time they wouldn't make it into the big games in the first place. For teams that win, those plays are bonuses, but generally teams that make it into those big games know how to keep the pressure off.

    I also would guess that some of the guys who put up better numbers in those situations have receivers who either get open really quickly, or at least one guy who you can just throw it to even when he's covered. QBs without those outlets ... all you can reasonably hope for in those situations is not to turn it over.

  2. #7742
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
    Those numbers might be interesting to find out, but ultimately I think you'll find that even the best QBs falter if they're constantly under the gun. I mean, Brady lost two SBs (and should have lost a 3rd) when he played mediocre against defenses who were able to pressure him. Even Mahomes, who would probably rank very highly amongst guys who can get away from pressure, couldn't get his team into the end zone in the most recent SB.

    Sure you don't want a guy who completely panics every time he's pressured and just throws it up for INTs all the time. And it's nice to have guys who know how to either buy time, or can get rid of it quickly and accurately. But even if you have someone who's the absolute top of the heap against pressure, if you ask him to do it all game long, then 1) he likely won't have a particularly great game even if he's a future HoF QB, 2) he'll get hurt, or 3) he'll wear down as the game goes on. No QB, not even Mahomes, can expect to run away from pressure for 4 quarters.

    The highlight plays where these QBs deliver big plays under pressure in big games is great and all, but if those teams were asking their QB to do that all the time they wouldn't make it into the big games in the first place. For teams that win, those plays are bonuses, but generally teams that make it into those big games know how to keep the pressure off.

    I also would guess that some of the guys who put up better numbers in those situations have receivers who either get open really quickly, or at least one guy who you can just throw it to even when he's covered. QBs without those outlets ... all you can reasonably hope for in those situations is not to turn it over.
    I guess it's which angle you take. A clever person can take stats and make someone look successful, when in fact you look at the bigger picture they're not. I would rate Carr about middle of the pack. He's deadly when he's comfortable, but a little erratic when rushed. Brady, has no mobility, so I could see his down side, but when you mention his name, how can you consider his losses?

  3. #7743
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    I guess it's which angle you take. A clever person can take stats and make someone look successful, when in fact you look at the bigger picture they're not. I would rate Carr about middle of the pack. He's deadly when he's comfortable, but a little erratic when rushed. Brady, has no mobility, so I could see his down side, but when you mention his name, how can you consider his losses?
    😂. I consider them. I think Brady Is overrated. I consider the losses. Being in an easy division. All the ďgatesĒ. Etc etc.

    I think there have been some great QBs. And Iíd include him in the list. But I think heís just benefited from too many other factors that the others havenít.

    I will say thoughÖ this year has made brady a little more like-able. A little.

  4. #7744
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarOutIos View Post
    😂. I consider them. I think Brady Is overrated. I consider the losses. Being in an easy division. All the ďgatesĒ. Etc etc.

    I think there have been some great QBs. And Iíd include him in the list. But I think heís just benefited from too many other factors that the others havenít.

    I will say thoughÖ this year has made brady a little more like-able. A little.
    Having that nasty Tampa D helped.

  5. #7745
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    Having that nasty Tampa D helped.
    That team is stacked on offense too. They have a first, second and third rounder as their RB depth chart, lol. Carr could win a SB with that roster, 😂. I get Rogers frustration.

  6. #7746
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    Vincent Bonsignore @VinnyBonsignore


    I've been getting asked a lot about speculation of talks opening between @Raiders and Derek Carr on a contract extension.

    My thoughts: The sense is, nothing of substance is happening right now on that front...

    ....This one will be interesting to watch. On one hand, the Raiders have their QB under control for the next two years at an under-market price ($42m total for two years), which is ideal from a roster-building perspective. So riding that out makes sense.

    On the other, by waiting to extend him, they run the risk of having to pay him more down the road than they would be taking care of it sooner...

    ..The salary cap is projected to take a big jump in 2022 & young QB's like Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen & Baker Mayfield will re-set the QB market with upcoming extensions. This raises another question: If you're Carr, do you wait until a new market emerges before doing a new deal?

  7. #7747
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterNRoss View Post
    Vincent Bonsignore @VinnyBonsignore


    I've been getting asked a lot about speculation of talks opening between @Raiders and Derek Carr on a contract extension.

    My thoughts: The sense is, nothing of substance is happening right now on that front...

    ....This one will be interesting to watch. On one hand, the Raiders have their QB under control for the next two years at an under-market price ($42m total for two years), which is ideal from a roster-building perspective. So riding that out makes sense.

    On the other, by waiting to extend him, they run the risk of having to pay him more down the road than they would be taking care of it sooner...

    ..The salary cap is projected to take a big jump in 2022 & young QB's like Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen & Baker Mayfield will re-set the QB market with upcoming extensions. This raises another question: If you're Carr, do you wait until a new market emerges before doing a new deal?
    From a negotiating standpoint, you can't use what may happen 2 years from now. He can also get injured badly, and that would put an end to it. I would get that extension done asap. Now on the other hand, if you're the Raiders, do you wait to see how he performs? At that point, you can always try to sign one of those FA qb's, and trade him.

  8. #7748
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    Brady, has no mobility, so I could see his down side, but when you mention his name, how can you consider his losses?
    I think the point is, even the guy who by most standards is the biggest "winner" in NFL history does not play like a "winner" when he doesn't have protection. No one does. Some guys make more plays than others under pressure, but the bottom line is that for successful teams, they're not asking their QB to do that very often because if they did they wouldn't be a successful team in the first place.

    Therefore, predicating your QB choice on who plays best when being swarmed by pass rushers isn't really productive, and I don't think that aspect separates "winners" and "losers" as much as some people might think. Now, there are guys who get weeded out because they're bottom of the barrel against pressure, but despite DC's flaws I don't think that's what's held him back.

  9. #7749
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
    I think the point is, even the guy who by most standards is the biggest "winner" in NFL history does not play like a "winner" when he doesn't have protection. No one does. Some guys make more plays than others under pressure, but the bottom line is that for successful teams, they're not asking their QB to do that very often because if they did they wouldn't be a successful team in the first place.

    Therefore, predicating your QB choice on who plays best when being swarmed by pass rushers isn't really productive, and I don't think that aspect separates "winners" and "losers" as much as some people might think. Now, there are guys who get weeded out because they're bottom of the barrel against pressure, but despite DC's flaws I don't think that's what's held him back.
    You'd have to admit, with the game on the line, and the ball in his hands, you'd have to feel pretty comfortable about winning the game. This past year was a little different with that D with the way they came after Rogers and Mahomes. Not sure if Carr wins with that team.
    Last edited by dbacknick; 07-10-2021 at 08:34 PM.

  10. #7750
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    You'd have to admit, with the game on the line, and the ball in his hands, you'd have to feel pretty comfortable about winning the game.
    Of course, but the fact that he has been made to look very mediocre when he's pressured just goes to show that even the winningest guy in NFL history isn't a "winner" when he's being harrassed constantly.

    This past year was a little different with that D with the way they came after Rogers and Mahomes. Not sure if Carr wins with that team.
    The claim was that performance against pressure separates "winners" from "losers." So we saw Mahomes put up 2 INTs and 9 points against TB's pressure ... does that make him a loser now? Any more than Brady was a loser because he lost twice against great defenses in the SB (and frankly got bailed out in another one)? Of course not.

    You want guys who can make plays when the stakes are high, of course. And a great QB can cover up some deficiencies. But even the best can't win games consistently with bad blocking, bad hands, or a terrible defense.

  11. #7751
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
    Of course, but the fact that he has been made to look very mediocre when he's pressured just goes to show that even the winningest guy in NFL history isn't a "winner" when he's being harrassed constantly.



    The claim was that performance against pressure separates "winners" from "losers." So we saw Mahomes put up 2 INTs and 9 points against TB's pressure ... does that make him a loser now? Any more than Brady was a loser because he lost twice against great defenses in the SB (and frankly got bailed out in another one)? Of course not.

    You want guys who can make plays when the stakes are high, of course. And a great QB can cover up some deficiencies. But even the best can't win games consistently with bad blocking, bad hands, or a terrible defense.
    You have to look at when the opportunity presents itself. Brady has produced more often then not. Looking at Carr, there's been quite a few situations where the game was on the line, and we never made it to the end zone.

  12. #7752
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    You have to look at when the opportunity presents itself. Brady has produced more often then not. Looking at Carr, there's been quite a few situations where the game was on the line, and we never made it to the end zone.
    True, but there's also been many many times where the game was on the line, and either the D couldn't get a stop to give him another shot, or he's actually gotten them a go-ahead score and the D gave it right back. Brady's teams have by and large had excellent defenses, often getting stops at key moments to give him that last shot at victory, or they've closed things out when he's put them ahead late.

    Just think back to the Tuck game ... the reality is if the Pats defense hadn't stopped us from one more first down, Brady never gets the ball back and the game is over. But picture just about any one of the Raiders' defenses during the Carr era ... would any of them have gotten that stop? Fat chance. I don't think it's a coincidence that our best year in DC's tenure, we had several games saved by Mack making a huge play at the end after Carr had come through with a winning drive. But this year, those games too often went the other way when no one was there to make the stop.

    He's not Brady, he never would have been. But also no question he'd have been much better off getting drafted by even an average NFL franchise, as opposed to the clown show we've had.

  13. #7753
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    From a negotiating standpoint, you can't use what may happen 2 years from now. He can also get injured badly, and that would put an end to it. I would get that extension done asap. Now on the other hand, if you're the Raiders, do you wait to see how he performs? At that point, you can always try to sign one of those FA qb's, and trade him.
    What better qb than dc can you sign that will out perform him and you wonít have to pay more than 30 a year? Btw Carr wonít make more than 25 on his contract now. I say we try to sign him long term to 25 mil a year for the next 5. Even if he is top 12, he will not be paid that way. As the d gets better, more wins will come. If we wait a couple years after we made the playoffs a couple times. His price will be over 30 plus. And those better than him will be 40 plus.

  14. #7754
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    You have to look at when the opportunity presents itself. Brady has produced more often then not. Looking at Carr, there's been quite a few situations where the game was on the line, and we never made it to the end zone.
    When has Brady had a 30th ranked defense? Let me answer that for you. Never. When has he had a 25th ranked defense? Answer is never in his career. He has had a top 15 d in each of his winning seasons.

  15. #7755
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbacknick View Post
    You'd have to admit, with the game on the line, and the ball in his hands, you'd have to feel pretty comfortable about winning the game. This past year was a little different with that D with the way they came after Rogers and Mahomes. Not sure if Carr wins with that team.
    After watching Carr throw the ball into the stands on 4th down and the playoffs on the line, NOPE! I'm not the least bit comfortable with him the game on the line.

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