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  1. #3076
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    Itís time to move on from Carr

    Quote Originally Posted by FarOutIos View Post
    Iíve had the similar viewpoint in Gannon. I think a lot of our fanbase overvalues his talent in hindsight. On a positive side, if gruden can make Gannon look great. And Carr has a solid statistical season with obvious faults (pocket awareness) and a depleted receiver group... I think if we do upgrade at QB and WR, that QB will be very successful. Maybe not on an Andy Reid level, but close.
    You guys crack me up. Gannon leads the team to 3 straight AFC West Championships, 2 AFC Championship games, 1 AFC Championship and a Super Bowl. He also won the NFL MVP and was an All Pro twice. Those are facts.

    I am not over valuing anything. The proof is in the pudding.


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  2. #3077
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    Gannon vs Carr is a laugh ... Gannon was clearly way better. Yes he had Rice and Brown... when they were in the final seasons of their career, lets not act like they were half of what they were during their prime

  3. #3078
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawaiiStyle View Post
    Gannon vs Carr is a laugh ... Gannon was clearly way better. Yes he had Rice and Brown... when they were in the final seasons of their career, lets not act like they were half of what they were during their prime
    My point wasnít Gannon vs Carr... if thatís what youíre referring to. My point is that grudenís system can make QBs look better. Similar to Andy Reid. Gannon never had a season with over 100 QBR. Gannon played and started for 3 teams with mediocre results. So obviously, his play was simply a matter of being on the right team with the right situation. A great fit!that helped Gannon produce and win.

    Carr has thrown for over 4000 yards each season with gruden and had a 100+ QBR this season. My point isnít that Carr is as good or better than Gannon. (Though it could be argued). My point is that gruden seems to be effective at maximizing production from QBs. So Iím actually saying that gruden might have made carr look better than he is this year.

  4. #3079
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    But... I think I might just not like Gannon very much. Maybe itís some of the comments Iíve heard him make about the organization after the fact. But it looks like Tim brown shares my view...

    In a subsequent radio interview, former Raider and Buccaneer Tim Brown commented that "Even hearing a guy like Gannon say something negative about the organization is really wrong. Gannon knows that he came there with that `I hate the Raiders' type mentality. He came in there with that, and showed that to all the players. Gannon wasn't a very well-like player his whole time with the Raiders. In fact he was downright hated, and if not for my intervention, a lot of times, there would have been times he would have been sure-enough jumped on, almost. So for a guy like Rich to say something just isn't fair to the organization, I don't believe."

  5. #3080
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarOutIos View Post
    But... I think I might just not like Gannon very much. Maybe itís some of the comments Iíve heard him make about the organization after the fact. But it looks like Tim brown shares my view...

    In a subsequent radio interview, former Raider and Buccaneer Tim Brown commented that "Even hearing a guy like Gannon say something negative about the organization is really wrong. Gannon knows that he came there with that `I hate the Raiders' type mentality. He came in there with that, and showed that to all the players. Gannon wasn't a very well-like player his whole time with the Raiders. In fact he was downright hated, and if not for my intervention, a lot of times, there would have been times he would have been sure-enough jumped on, almost. So for a guy like Rich to say something just isn't fair to the organization, I don't believe."
    It wasn't a good time back then. Al stuck his nose into everything. Gruden wound up leaving because of it. So what he said was true, but it didn't affect his play.

  6. #3081
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    Itís time to move on from Carr

    Quote Originally Posted by FarOutIos View Post
    But... I think I might just not like Gannon very much. Maybe itís some of the comments Iíve heard him make about the organization after the fact. But it looks like Tim brown shares my view...

    In a subsequent radio interview, former Raider and Buccaneer Tim Brown commented that "Even hearing a guy like Gannon say something negative about the organization is really wrong. Gannon knows that he came there with that `I hate the Raiders' type mentality. He came in there with that, and showed that to all the players. Gannon wasn't a very well-like player his whole time with the Raiders. In fact he was downright hated, and if not for my intervention, a lot of times, there would have been times he would have been sure-enough jumped on, almost. So for a guy like Rich to say something just isn't fair to the organization, I don't believe."
    Gannon cam from an organization that had beaten the Raiders line a drum for a decade.

    As much as I love Timmy as a player the old Raider way was dysfunctional in 1998. Changes needed to be made.

    Typically if criticism angers itís usually on the mark. Gruden and Gannon pumped life into the morbid franchise and made the Raiders elite again for a short period of time.

    As for myself-I loved the way Gannon played. I wish Carr played with that kind of fire and tenacity,


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  7. #3082
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawaiiStyle View Post
    Gannon vs Carr is a laugh ... Gannon was clearly way better. Yes he had Rice and Brown... when they were in the final seasons of their career, lets not act like they were half of what they were during their prime
    To be fair Iíd take either of them over any WR Carr has ever had, even at that point of their careers. What they lacked in athleticism, was more than made up from their intelligence and experience. With that being said I still think Gannon was better despite Carr being the better arm talent. It has little to do with Gannonís stats or the wins his teams compiled, itís just from what I seen from my own eyes.

  8. #3083
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    Itís time to move on from Carr

    Quote Originally Posted by donofdacourts View Post
    To be fair Iíd take either of them over any WR Carr has ever had, even at that point of their careers. What they lacked in athleticism, was more than made up from their intelligence and experience. With that being said I still think Gannon was better despite Carr being the better arm talent. It has little to do with Gannonís stats or the wins his teams compiled, itís just from what I seen from my own eyes.
    Oh no doubt Carr has much better passing attributes than Gannon did. So did Jeff George-whom maybe was the best pure passer the NFL has ever seen. I am dead serious on that one.

    But there lies the debate. Measurableís vs. intangibles. Trust me-grit and competitiveness donít always win out. Look at McGloin. I was wrong and disappointed in that one. But look at Tom Brady it Gannon. Those characteristics carried the day with those two.

    QB is probably the most difficult position to access. It can be such a high risk high reward decision in the draft...


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  9. #3084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proximo View Post
    Oh no doubt Carr has much better passing attributes than Gannon did. So did Jeff George-whom maybe was the best pure passer the NFL has ever seen. I am dead serious on that one.

    But there lies the debate. Measurableís vs. intangibles. Trust me-grit and competitiveness donít always win out. Look at McGloin. I was wrong and disappointed in that one. But look at Tom Brady it Gannon. Those characteristics carried the day with those two.

    QB is probably the most difficult position to access. It can be such a high risk high reward decision in the draft...


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    Yeah I wonít argue with the majority of that. I personally believe that the QB position is just as much about everything around you as it is the player himself. Organizationally, schematically, coaching, and personnel are all key elements of success. You donít have to have them all, but Iíd be willing to bet no QB has been successful with at least the majority of that being sound.

    I think the way the game has changed itís more about personnel and scheme with QBs than ever. Do you have the coaches to mold that scheme to make the QB comfortable and successful? Do you have the personnel that plays to that QBs strength and limit exposure to his weaknesses? The days are over where a QB had to fit into the coaches scheme even if he didnít mesh with that scheme.

    For instance you dont draft guys like Kap, RG3, and Jackson without a plan in place to make them successful. I think itís several cases over the course of history where if a player is drafted by a different team he would have been a much better player and vice versa. For instance had we drafted Tom Brady in the 6th round he likely would have been out of the league or a career backup for multiple teams. Had the Ravens drafted Jamarcus Russell he likely makes it past his rookie contract.(The Ravens supposedly had him very high on their draft board if I recall only 2nd to CJ.). Itís just as much about situations and fits than talent, thatís why a lot of the greatest QBs were later draft picks. What made them successful was landing in the right situation.

  10. #3085
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    Situation certainly matters, but nothing determines the success of an individual as much as the will and determination of the individual.

    -Stork




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    "Win some games, make the playoffs and show me you got some balls under the bright lights"

    -tippa irie

  11. #3086
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    I mostly agree, itís been some hard workers who ultimately failed because of their surroundings. Not only happens in sports, but also happens in life. While having will and determination matters in a team sport you can only overcome so much. Itís one of the biggest factors in Archie advising Eli not to go to the Chargers after spending his career wasting away in New Orleans, despite all of his hard work.

    The ideal scenario is obviously both of the two coming together. Iíve seen some real losers come out on top though in a team sport, it happens.

  12. #3087
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    Are some of you seriously arguing Gannon's stellar career? He was pathetic for his first 12 years of his career. He dealt with injuries for sure however he got taken out of the games several times in Minnisota and KC. It took Gannon 12 years before his first 3000 yard season. Gannon had 4 seasons where he threw more INT's than TD's. It was shocking that he made it in the league as long as he did.

    Stat wise, you can take Gannon's best 4 years and Carr's worst 4 years and they are identical. I would argue Carr's was better. And don't use the excuse that they didn't throw as many passes back then. During that 4 year span, Gannon averaged more attempts and Carr had a better completion %. Carr had more 20 plus and 40 plus completions than Gannon, which is Carr's biggest knock about getting the ball downfield. LOL Gannon rarely attempted a pass inside the 10-15 yard line.. Just hand it to Wheatley or Crocket. You don't want me to throw out defensive stats during those same 4 year span...... I wonder how many mvp's Brady, Manning, Montana, and Rodgers would have had is their defense gave up 27 plus points a game...

    All this is coming from a guy that is fed up with Carr and I am ready to move on. Im not defending Carr, Just putting Gannon in perspective.

    So If you are suggesting that we be more patient with Carr.. Im not waiting for season 13 like you all did with Gannon.

    If you don't agree with me, you are either too young to remember, or watch too many highlight films.

    Hahahahaha... Could you imagine Stork's patients with Gannon in his first 12 seasons.... LOL.!!!!! He would have settled for Pryor.

    Gannon is overrated.
    Dogdaddy

  13. #3088
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    Did someone just compare completely different eraís in passing yds etc? There was 1 maybe 2 QBís then that threw over 4K yards...now thereís 10+ every year... itís a completely different era.

  14. #3089
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    Itís like comparing Harden and MJ, saying MJ wouldnít score 40ppg in this era with these rules, the way the games changed, is actually a weak straw man argument.

  15. #3090
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    Quote Originally Posted by GREATNESS ONE View Post
    Did someone just compare completely different eraís in passing yds etc? There was 1 maybe 2 QBís then that threw over 4K yards...now thereís 10+ every year... itís a completely different era.
    Even though Gannon had more attempts?

    Lol try again

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