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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbyIsMyHero View Post
    And I’m not making the argument that jimmy and Rodgers were in similar situations, only that their situations are far more similar than JG is to Brees and Manning.

    Are you telling me that you don’t believe Manning and Brees would’ve performed better in their first 20 starts if their first 20 starts came after sitting for a year or two?
    I have no way of saying one way or the other. I expect players to struggle early in their playing career, as should most. I do think fans romanticize the notion of sitting behind a veteran though. Playing is the only true test and learning experiance one needs.

    The only time riding a bench helps a QB, to me anyway, is if it's to physically protect them from an unbuilt OL to prevent a David Carr situation. If there's a solid OL, there's really no reason to have a guy ride the pine unless he's a project, not the expected starter.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedandGold_35 View Post
    I have no way of saying one way or the other. I expect players to struggle early in their playing career, as should most. I do think fans romanticize the notion of sitting behind a veteran though. Playing is the only true test and learning experiance one needs.

    The only time riding a bench helps a QB, to me anyway, is if it's to physically protect them from an unbuilt OL to prevent a David Carr situation. If there's a solid OL, there's really no reason to have a guy ride the pine unless he's a project, not the expected starter.
    Well, then don’t take my word for it... take Aaron Rodgers’ word for how it helped him...

    And remember, Favre notoriously refused to groom him. But read all of Rodgers’ quotes in this article and tell me there’s no significant benefit to the things he says…

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chi...outputType=amp
    Last edited by GibbyIsMyHero; 11-22-2019 at 09:12 PM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedandGold_35 View Post
    I mean that's your opinion, but you'll be hard pressed to show how I am. It's factual that Rodgers and Young had consistent scheme and coaching before starting while others have not.

    The QB position is widely considered one of the hardest postions to find talent at.

    And all the watching and book studying in the world doesn't give you hands on experience with live problems to overcome.

    Disagree all you like, but there is hardly anything wrong with what I wrote.
    Young isn't a good example because he went from college to starting in the USFL, then for the Bucs for 19 games, then was traded to the 49ers where Walsh un-made his bad habits and he still didn't overcome them all until 6 years into his time with the 49ers.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    I'm not trying to be a dick, but going to school to be a certain thing, being around it, doing it for 10 years before you start doing it, then being a paid apprentice ala practice, and watching how it's done for 3 years learning and watching one of the best ever, yes you have a pretty god damn huge advantage over the rest. Obviously you need to be hands on, but you have had training - practice, preseason, even started some games. Theres absolutely no comparison to anyone other than Rodgers and Young in that instance. Manning, Brees, Big Ben whatever, no. You cant compare JG to them
    Lol sure, in this analogy to mechanics you'd probably be fine at changing a tire, replacing simple parts, but you don't get the actual difficult work experience as an onlooker. Same goes for a QB, you can be shown how plays "should" work on a chalkboard, you can have no contact practice drills against backup defenses and scout teams, but that doesn't prepare you in anyway for live action. Nothing comes close to the regular season/playoff NFL, not preseason, not the best college divisions, and no amount of high school or pee wee football. These are almost exclusively the best players and coaches condensed into a very small group of teams, all gunning for you.

    If there's no comparison to Brees or Manning, there's also no comparison to Young or Rodgers aside from time spent waiting. Both had far more time and consistency in a system before starting. Rodgers took over a 13-3 team. I don't have to tell you what Young inherited. Context matters. Jimmy falls somewhere in the middle, and I think it's fair to expect some struggle. If you disagree, I can't do much for that.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbyIsMyHero View Post
    Well, then don’t take my word for it... take Aaron Rodgers’ word for how it helped him...

    And remember, Favre notoriously refused to groom him. Favre notoriously refused to groom him. But read all of Rodgers’ quotes in this article and tell me there’s no significant benefit to the things he says… quotes in this article and tell me there’s no significant benefit to the things he says…

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chi...outputType=amp
    Rodgers opinion =/= the rule of how things work. If it helped him, great. I still think taking over a great team with 3 years of system consistency is more vital.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedandGold_35 View Post
    Rodgers opinion =/= the rule of how things work. If it helped him, great. I still think taking over a great team with 3 years of system consistency is more vital.
    Well, now you’re just trying to downplay the significance. There’s no doubt he benefited from the things he says. If you don’t wanna read the article, that’s fine, but there’s no doubt that he had a huge advantage by being able to figure things out by working against a very good secondary in practices with no pressure on him

  7. #187
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    Why does anyone care about INT's so much.

    Would you like to return to Alex Smith led offenses. League best at avoiding turnovers. Completely AWFUL on 3rd down.

    Jimmy is currently a top 10 QB and on his way to the top 5. You can't teach that release. Elite. Can't teach his pocket presence. Elite.

    Best QB we've had since Young by far.

    Remember, these same booger eating 49er fans gave Alex Smith 11 years after watching him take sack, after sack, after sack because he wouldn't get rid of the ball and never let it rip. With some MAJOR offensive weapons I might add.

    Now we are crying about Jimmy because he's thrown a few dumb INT's while he's marching down the field with street free agents?

    Lmfao.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbyIsMyHero View Post
    Well, now you’re just trying to downplay the significance. There’s no doubt he benefited from the things he says. If you don’t wanna read the article, that’s fine, but there’s no doubt that he had a huge advantage by being able to figure things out by working against a very good secondary in practices with no pressure on him
    I did read it, I didn't see anything beyond his own opinion on a few things it may "potentially" help with. He talks about learning how to be a professional, how to manage your health, and learning about taking risks against scout team defense while learning nuance of the system. All of those things can help, but they can all also be learned without sitting. He talks about taking pressure off, but if a guy can't handle pressure, he's probably not your guy anyway.

    Again, if it worked for him, that's great. Lots of legends didn't need that.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedandGold_35 View Post
    I did read it, I didn't see anything beyond his own opinion on a few things it may "potentially" help with. He talks about learning how to be a professional, how to manage your health, and learning about taking risks against scout team defense while learning nuance of the system. All of those things can help, but they can all also be learned without sitting. He talks about taking pressure off, but if a guy can't handle pressure, he's probably not your guy anyway.

    Again, if it worked for him, that's great. Lots of legends didn't need that.
    He also said...

    "You're taking some chances... Knowing how to fit balls in spots or use your eyes for some major eye-control stuff and some look-off plays. Just working on things every single day."

    "Work on my fundamentals... Work on my footwork; try and get my timing down. Try and put some of the plays that we were running of the other team's into our language, so you start to work on timing up drops with the receiver routes”

    "And just going through your progressions. Putting together some of the fronts with the shell and the coverage and the pressures. Just trying to treat those like really important reps every day."

    "...But mentally it takes a while to learn the offense and, more importantly, start to learn defenses."

    "There are usually two ways of doing things, so it's important for players to understand specifically why you're doing it. Because that way, they'll be more detailed with what you're asking them to do. The commitment and understanding will be higher."

    Sure “some legends didn’t “need it”, but they certainly would’ve benefit from experience.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwfulQBEvaluate View Post
    Why does anyone care about INT's so much.

    Would you like to return to Alex Smith led offenses. League best at avoiding turnovers. Completely AWFUL on 3rd down.
    Alex Smith was horrible when he was throwing interceptions.

    Alex Smit was actually pretty good when he wasn’t throwing interceptions.

    Does that answer the question?


    Quote Originally Posted by AwfulQBEvaluate View Post

    Jimmy is currently a top 10 QB and on his way to the top 5. You can't teach that release. Elite. Can't teach his pocket presence. Elite.

    Best QB we've had since Young by far.

    Remember, these same booger eating 49er fans gave Alex Smith 11 years after watching him take sack, after sack, after sack because he wouldn't get rid of the ball and never let it rip. With some MAJOR offensive weapons I might add.

    Now we are crying about Jimmy because he's thrown a few dumb INT's while he's marching down the field with street free agents?

    Lmfao.
    Jimmy is good! No one here is saying that he is not. The only argument being made is that comparing his first 20 starts to the first 20 starts of Manning and Brees is not even remotely similar

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbyIsMyHero View Post
    He also said...

    "You're taking some chances... Knowing how to fit balls in spots or use your eyes for some major eye-control stuff and some look-off plays. Just working on things every single day."

    "Work on my fundamentals... Work on my footwork; try and get my timing down. Try and put some of the plays that we were running of the other team's into our language, so you start to work on timing up drops with the receiver routes”

    "And just going through your progressions. Putting together some of the fronts with the shell and the coverage and the pressures. Just trying to treat those like really important reps every day."

    "...But mentally it takes a while to learn the offense and, more importantly, start to learn defenses."

    "There are usually two ways of doing things, so it's important for players to understand specifically why you're doing it. Because that way, they'll be more detailed with what you're asking them to do. The commitment and understanding will be higher."

    Sure “some legends didn’t “need it”, but they certainly would’ve benefit from experience.
    That to me is all things players should have down and if they don't, can learn as they go.

    Not some, most legends. Diamonds are formed under pressure. Rodgers is a historical outlier. I can keep digging, but most of the modern HOF guys I consider the absolute best were playing significant snaps by their mid 2nd season at latest, most their 1st.

    If you have the absolute luxury to take a 1st round level QB while already having a QB, then I guess do it, but most teams won't have that luxury. That's why the idea will likely remain an opinion other than a rule.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedandGold_35 View Post
    That to me is all things players should have down and if they don't, can learn as they go.
    I’m going to stop you here because this is the only part that’s relevant to the one argument I’ve been making this whole time and I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with anything else you’ve written below it.

    I am not arguing about the best way to develop a Hall of Fame quarterback. I’m not arguing about the merits of sitting or starting a rookie QB. I’m Not making claims about draft strategies. I’m not arguing about how to forge diamonds or build engines.

    My point is simply an extension of what you wrote above.

    Peyton Manning and Drew Brees both HAD to “learn as they go” - JG and A-a-ron did not.

    I’m not making any claims that Manning and Brees should’ve been developed differently, forced to sit for a year, they had too much pressure or anything like that.

    I’m only stating that Brees‘ and Manning’s circumstances were IN FACT very different, therefore comparing their interceptions to JG’s through their respective first 20 starts isn’t an apples to apples comparison.

    Given the way Aaron Rodgers suggests he himself developed as a backup, I assume he’d agree that had Manning and Brees been afforded similar opportunities their numbers would look significantly better than what they actually posted.
    Last edited by GibbyIsMyHero; 11-22-2019 at 11:33 PM.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbyIsMyHero View Post
    I’m going to stop you here because this is the only part that’s relevant to the one argument I’ve been making this whole time and I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with anything else you’ve written below it.

    I am not arguing about the best way to develop a Hall of Fame quarterback. I’m not arguing about the merits of sitting or starting a rookie QB. I’m Not making claims about draft strategies. I’m not arguing about how to forge diamonds or build engines.

    My point is simply an extension of what you wrote above.

    Peyton Manning and Drew Brees both HAD to “learn as they go” - JG and A-a-ron did not.

    I’m not making any claims that Manning and Brees should’ve been developed differently, forced to sit for a year, they had too much pressure or anything like that.

    I’m only stating that Brees‘ and Manning’s circumstances were IN FACT very different, therefore comparing their interceptions to JG’s through their respective first 20 starts isn’t an apples to apples comparison.

    Given the way Aaron Rodgers suggests he himself developed as a backup, I assume he’d agree that had Manning and Brees been afforded similar opportunities their numbers would look significantly better than what they actually posted.
    And I'm only stating that because it worked for 1 person, doesn't make it any less of a reason that someone struggles. If there were more examples, sure, but one outlier doesn't make it a rule. Situations might not be the same, but it's still someone struggling in the early playing part of their career. As I also stated, if riding the bench helped or changed something that much, there wouldn't be a shortage of top level QBs around the league.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedandGold_35 View Post
    And I'm only stating that because it worked for 1 person, doesn't make it any less of a reason that someone struggles. If there were more examples, sure, but one outlier doesn't make it a rule. Situations might not be the same, but it's still someone struggling in the early playing part of their career. As I also stated, if riding the bench helped or changed something that much, there wouldn't be a shortage of top level QBs around the league.
    You’re shifting my argument.

    I’m not saying sit ME on a bench for a few seasons and I’ll become even a decent QB in the league.

    I’m saying give an elite QB time to get his feet wet - instead of sending him out to chuck it 575 times - and he likely doesn’t throw 28 picks as a 22 year old rookie.

    And this isn’t the “early part of [Jimmy’s] career” either. That’s kind of the point.

    I’m done - this is going nowhere
    "There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.”

    - Carl Sagan


  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbyIsMyHero View Post
    You’re shifting my argument.

    I’m not saying sit ME on a bench for a few seasons and I’ll become even a decent QB in the league.

    I’m saying give an elite QB time to get his feet wet - instead of sending him out to chuck it 575 times - and he likely doesn’t throw 28 picks as a 22 year old rookie.

    And this isn’t the “early part of [Jimmy’s] career” either. That’s kind of the point.

    I’m done - this is going nowhere
    And I'm not saying sit YOU or I and it works either. As I've said, it worked for Rodgers, awesome. As soon as Jimmy moved teams and schemes he lost any comperable factor beside age and time on the bench total. If that's your apples to apples basis, it's flimsy at best. As I think I stated once or twice, Jimmy doesn't compare to Rodgers or Brees/Manning that well, so by default you have to just judge it for what it is, a guys first 20 games.

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