In Season Random Topics and Discussion

[GibbyIsMyHero]

By their 20th career start...

Brees - 23yo, 2nd NFL season
Brady - 25yo, 3rd NFL season
Manning - 23yo, 2nd NFL season
Garoppolo - 28yo, 6th NFL season

Manning threw 28 of those picks as a 22 year old rookie who was commanding an offense that was entirely on his shoulders. He led the league with 575 pass attempts - again - as a rookie.

Brees struggled incredibly and had shoulder surgery over his first couple seasons. I mean, Garoppolo clearly compares well to Steve Young in their early careers, but he’s not Steve Young.

Additionally, a lot of things have changed in the league since the era of those great QBs’ early careers that have made it easier on QBs today.

I’m not saying Garoppolo sucks, just saying it’s probably not fair on any of the players discussed to make comparisons like that.

[RedandGold_35]

By their 20th career start...

Brees - 23yo, 2nd NFL season
Brady - 25yo, 3rd NFL season
Manning - 23yo, 2nd NFL season
Garoppolo - 28yo, 6th NFL season

Manning threw 28 of those picks as a 22 year old rookie who was commanding an offense that was entirely on his shoulders. He led the league with 575 pass attempts - again - as a rookie.

Brees struggled incredibly and had shoulder surgery over his first couple seasons. I mean, Garoppolo clearly compares well to Steve Young in their early careers, but he’s not Steve Young.

Additionally, a lot of things have changed in the league since the era of those great QBs’ early careers that have made it easier on QBs today.

I’m not saying Garoppolo sucks, just saying it’s probably not fair on any of the players discussed to make comparisons like that.

I believe the comparison is soley just that QBs struggle in early playing time. Jimmy might be older and more years along, but bench time really isn't playing time.

[Lakers211221]

I believe the comparison is soley just that QBs struggle in early playing time. Jimmy might be older and more years along, but bench time really isn't playing time.

Exactly this. Learning how to read defenses and how tight of windows that you can fit the football come with gaining experience by playing in games, not standing on the sidelines. Shanahan said before this season that last year was supposed to be the year that Jimmy was supposed to have ups and downs, but we're seeing that more this year.

Another interesting stat. On the drives this year following his interceptions, Jimmy is 32 for 35 (91.4 percent), 288 yards, 2 TDs, 0 interceptions and a 120 passer rating. In other words, he moves on and bounces back from the bad play. That's a good sign that he will improve with experience.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

I get what you guys are saying, but there’s a couple counterpoints that seem to be getting ignored...

1) It’s not as though Jimmy solely had bench time in the years leading up to his 20th start. He had the benefit of learning from Tom Brady and Bill Belichick for 3 years as he matured mentally, physically, and in his understanding of the game and got his feet wet with a 3 start stint there.

2) Because of the above, Rodgers is the most apt comparison because his situation was more similar. Had Rodgers not sat behind Favre for 3 years, we might be able to include his 20th start numbers in this lot but, because he was groomed, he was amazing from the start. In his first season he had a 2.4 INT rate, in his second year he led the league at 1.3 while throwing the ball roughly 540 times each season.

3) If JG were thrust into the same situation as Manning and Brees, he likely ends up throwing a lot more than 16 picks in his first 20 starts.

That’s all I’m saying. Not that he can’t be a great QB, just that those comparisons are not exactly apples to apples

[RedandGold_35]

I get what you guys are saying, but there’s a couple counterpoints that seem to be getting ignored...

1) It’s not as though Jimmy solely had bench time in the years leading up to his 20th start. He had the benefit of learning from Tom Brady and Bill Belichick for 3 years as he matured mentally, physically, and in his understanding of the game and got his feet wet with a 3 start stint there.

2) Because of the above, Rodgers is the most apt comparison because his situation was more similar. Had Rodgers not sat behind Favre for 3 years, we might be able to include his 20th start numbers in this lot but, because he was groomed, he was amazing from the start. In his first season he had a 2.4 INT rate, in his second year he led the league at 1.3 while throwing the ball roughly 540 times each season.

3) If JG were thrust into the same situation as Manning and Brees, he likely ends up throwing a lot more than 16 picks in his first 20 starts.

That’s all I’m saying. Not that he can’t be a great QB, just that those comparisons are not exactly apples to apples

I wouldn't use Belichick as a QB mentor, and we can't actually say Brady was for a fact. I could watch a master mechanic for 3 years and still barely have any idea what I'm doing when I actually get hands on.

Rodgers did well sure, but if we're talking apples to apples, we can't just assume his and Jimmy's experiences were the same either. Rodgers also sat all that time in the same system, Jimmy sat 2 years in NEs system then came here and then had a freak season injury.

The comparison is simply that guys in their first live action often struggle, even most of the modern greats. Not that it's expected, not even that it's an excuse, it's just something that can and does happen.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

I wouldn't use Belichick as a QB mentor, and we can't actually say Brady was for a fact. I could watch a master mechanic for 3 years and still barely have any idea what I'm doing when I actually get hands on.

Rodgers did well sure, but if we're talking apples to apples, we can't just assume his and Jimmy's experiences were the same either. Rodgers also sat all that time in the same system, Jimmy sat 2 years in NEs system then came here and then had a freak season injury.

The comparison is simply that guys in their first live action often struggle, even most of the modern greats. Not that it's expected, not even that it's an excuse, it's just something that can and does happen.

Most assuredly, if you were a mechanic your whole early life, then sat and watched a master mechanic for 3 years, you’re almost definitely going to learn quite a bit... and if Jimmy learned nothing from watching Brady, he shouldn’t even be in the league.

Point being - he had a Master mechanic to watch for 3 year while Brees and Manning were handed wrenches and told to rebuild the engine on day 1.

Hell, the two tales of Steve Young’s career provide a microcosm of exactly what I’m saying - he was horrible in his first two years. Then he sat behind Joe Montana, who wasn’t exactly taking a mentor’s role, and learned from Bill Walsh for 4 years. The rest is history.

[RedandGold_35]

Most assuredly, if you were a mechanic your whole early life, then sat and watched a master mechanic for 3 years, you’re almost definitely going to learn quite a bit... and if Jimmy learned nothing from watching Brady, he shouldn’t even be in the league.

Point being - he had a Master mechanic to watch for 3 year while Brees and Manning were handed wrenches and told to rebuild the engine on day 1.

Hell, the two tales of Steve Young’s career provide a microcosm of exactly what I’m saying - he was horrible in his first two years. Then he sat behind Joe Montana, who wasn’t exactly taking a mentor’s role, and learned from Bill Walsh for 4 years. The rest is history.

Basic mechanics maybe, but sitting and watching only teaches very little after a point.

By your own logic, Brees and Manning had been mechanics most of their early lives though. If sitting behind a great made a QB good on the field, it wouldn't be the hardest position to find, because many have.

The key thing with Young and Rodgers was the coaches and systems much more than who was in front of them. Jimmy, Brees, Manning, none of them had that.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

Basic mechanics maybe, but sitting and watching only teaches very little after a point.

By your own logic, Brees and Manning had been mechanics most of their early lives though. If sitting behind a great made a QB good on the field, it wouldn't be the hardest position to find, because many have.

The key thing with Young and Rodgers was the coaches and systems much more than who was in front of them. Jimmy, Brees, Manning, none of them had that.

I just don’t agree with that at all.

Jimmy most definitely has had two fantastic offensive systems and just came off of more than than a year with nothing to do but learn this one.

[Scoots]

I think Jimmy's limited real time playing time is an issue. He needs to experience things opponents do over time, and to learn what he can get away with and what he cant.

At the same time, he STILL has bad habits, and questionable mechanics that he has had time to learn to eliminate.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

I think Jimmy's limited real time playing time is an issue. He needs to experience things opponents do over time, and to learn what he can get away with and what he cant.

At the same time, he STILL has bad habits, and questionable mechanics that he has had time to learn to eliminate.

I agree with this.

The only point I’m making is that Jimmy’s had significant advantages over Brees and Manning through their respective first 20 starts which makes for an unbalanced comparison

[rapjuicer06]

Basic mechanics maybe, but sitting and watching only teaches very little after a point.

By your own logic, Brees and Manning had been mechanics most of their early lives though. If sitting behind a great made a QB good on the field, it wouldn't be the hardest position to find, because many have.

The key thing with Young and Rodgers was the coaches and systems much more than who was in front of them. Jimmy, Brees, Manning, none of them had that.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried

[RedandGold_35]

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried

I mean that's your opinion, but you'll be hard pressed to show how I am. It's factual that Rodgers and Young had consistent scheme and coaching before starting while others have not.

The QB position is widely considered one of the hardest postions to find talent at.

And all the watching and book studying in the world doesn't give you hands on experience with live problems to overcome.

Disagree all you like, but there is hardly anything wrong with what I wrote.

[RedandGold_35]

I just don’t agree with that at all.

Jimmy most definitely has had two fantastic offensive systems and just came off of more than than a year with nothing to do but learn this one.

Having had two offensive schemes is one thing, having to go from one to the other is something else entirely. My point wasn't that they didn't have coaching, but that they didn't get to sit and learn the whole time in those systems. Brees and Manning were tossed into the fire and Jimmy had to learn a whole new scheme and then also rebound from a leg injury, the situation is nothing like Rodgers who had years to learn McCarthy's offense, so there's no apples to apples there.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

Having had two offensive schemes is one thing, having to go from one to the other is something else entirely. My point wasn't that they didn't have coaching, but that they didn't get to sit and learn the whole time in those systems. Brees and Manning were tossed into the fire and Jimmy had to learn a whole new scheme and then also rebound from a leg injury, the situation is nothing like Rodgers who had years to learn McCarthy's offense, so there's no apples to apples there.

And I’m not making the argument that jimmy and Rodgers were in similar situations, only that their situations are far more similar than JG is to Brees and Manning.

Are you telling me that you don’t believe Manning and Brees would’ve performed better in their first 20 starts if their first 20 starts came after sitting for a year or two?

[rapjuicer06]

I mean that's your opinion, but you'll be hard pressed to show how I am. It's factual that Rodgers and Young had consistent scheme and coaching before starting while others have not.

The QB position is widely considered one of the hardest postions to find talent at.

And all the watching and book studying in the world doesn't give you hands on experience with live problems to overcome.

Disagree all you like, but there is hardly anything wrong with what I wrote.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but going to school to be a certain thing, being around it, doing it for 10 years before you start doing it, then being a paid apprentice ala practice, and watching how it's done for 3 years learning and watching one of the best ever, yes you have a pretty god damn huge advantage over the rest. Obviously you need to be hands on, but you have had training - practice, preseason, even started some games. Theres absolutely no comparison to anyone other than Rodgers and Young in that instance. Manning, Brees, Big Ben whatever, no. You cant compare JG to them