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Thread: Preseason

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    both niskanen and braun played 20 MPG last season in shutdown roles, on 100+ point teams.

    if you want to argue that they did their jobs poorly, i get it, but i think it's important to note that because they ate those hard minutes, their teammates (burns, carlson, karlsson) were able to put up massive offensive numbers (198 points in 215 games) with less wear and tear.


    if provorov and niskanen take up that kind of role, sanheim and ghost could be on the verge of some huge seasons.
    Niskanen did not do his job well last year. At all. The minutes are high but the results were not good and not encouraging. He's not a first line player at this point until he shows positive regression (which at his age, there is a good chance he won't). And many of those other players have done well in the past. I think saying "Niskanen was sucky and sacrifices himself so others can be good" is at best a "correlation does not equate causation" argument.

    Put Ghost with Provorov; it's been highly successful in the past. Put Sanheim with Niskanen, as hopefully Sanheim's play driving will limit Niskanen from getting burned; you can't get scored in if you have the puck. Put Braun, who's a stable hand, if unspectacular, with Myers. Give them less minutes. Let Myers learn on the fly, as Hagg sucks. Probably talent wise your best line matches to start the year. See how it plays out.

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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Niskanen did not do his job well last year. At all. The minutes are high but the results were not good and not encouraging. He's not a first line player at this point until he shows positive regression (which at his age, there is a good chance he won't). And many of those other players have done well in the past. I think saying "Niskanen was sucky and sacrifices himself so others can be good" is at best a "correlation does not equate causation" argument.

    Put Ghost with Provorov; it's been highly successful in the past. Put Sanheim with Niskanen, as hopefully Sanheim's play driving will limit Niskanen from getting burned; you can't get scored in if you have the puck. Put Braun, who's a stable hand, if unspectacular, with Myers. Give them less minutes. Let Myers learn on the fly, as Hagg sucks. Probably talent wise your best line matches to start the year. See how it plays out.

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    I like sanheim with niskanen but don't really like having having two rhd on the same pair. None of those guys have played that position for a long period of time I think. At best i think we should do provorov-nisk, sanheim-myers/braun and then next year have provorov-myers if he is ready and have that be our pair for the future. Sanheim-niskanen would be a great pairing and would have niskanen with less pressure

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    I like sanheim with niskanen but don't really like having having two rhd on the same pair. None of those guys have played that position for a long period of time I think. At best i think we should do provorov-nisk, sanheim-myers/braun and then next year have provorov-myers if he is ready and have that be our pair for the future. Sanheim-niskanen would be a great pairing and would have niskanen with less pressure
    I don't care they're both RH. I think, again, handedness is the last thing I'm looking at. Niskanen was a massive liability in the shot qualities and chances he gave up last year. That's a bad person to give the best, toughest, and most difficult minutes to. You're either hoping that a 33 year old defensemen who's showing signs of decline isn't (which isn't a good bet. At this stage you hope it stabilizes and doesn't get worse. It's not incredibly likely that he has positive regression) or that Provorov can just drag him around, which after his year, doesn't seem a good bet.

    Provy-Ghost has worked in the past. I think they work well together. Go to that well from the start. If Niskanen-Sanheim doesn't work for 15-20 games, or Provy-Ghost needs changed up....then you have some idea of what Niskanen looks like. Is he showing that same issue of giving up consistent high quality shots when he's on the ice? Is it better? Unitl he answers those questions, ignoring that data simply because he holds the stick the other way would be a bad choice. While I'd prefer R-L, myself, it's a preference. Not a requirement. And shouldn't take precedence. Talent should always be the most important deciding factor. Then you go from there.

  4. #124
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    farabee, myers send to ahl. Sigh

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    farabee, myers send to ahl. Sigh
    why hagg still remains


    what argument is there for hagg over myers?
    Last edited by More-Than-Most; 10-01-2019 at 09:13 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    farabee, myers send to ahl. Sigh
    Sadly they created a situation in which much of this was their own making. They put themselves right back into a cap issue. Granted, the injuries were not really their issue in terms of not knowing someone like Patrick would develop a migraine issue, but they created a situation where players like Myers were the only waiver exempt player. On top of it, Myers didn't really help himself.

    I'm not particularly enthralled with the decisions made for the roster. Bunnaman and Twarynski are pretty uninteresting as bottom 6 forwards. Bunnaman is likely a product of being in the right place-right time in the AHL and less due to his skill and Twarynski is just a whole lot of "blah". I think far too much was placed on what they looked like in short camp times and less in terms of what these players true talent levels are.

    Hopefully, in a short while, the team can replace Hagg with Myers, and will create a more talented/dynamic fourth line with players who actually have a little ceiling to them. Hopefully Farabee is back up shortly because he dominates the AHL and Morgan Frost gets healthy and does the same. But overall, some of this is self inflicted on how they handled the cap and partly, it seems, too much being put in what a player looked like in a few random exhibition pre-season games.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    why hagg still remains


    what argument is there for hagg over myers?
    Sadly, they had to. Hagg is probably too good to simply waive; someone's grabbing him, and he's a solid 6/7 swing guy for a team. I trust him more than say, Sam Morin. I don't think Hagg should be in the stable top-6, but as a plug and play guy, he'd be a nice option. The Flyers cap situation is once again, not good. The Flyers have a little over $250K of cap space right now. So with Patrick and Pitlick being hurt, they had to get cap-compliant (as they were $1.3m over the cap). Myers being the only waiver-exempt defensemen on the roster, and the likelihood that Hagg/Morin would have been scooped up...it had to be Myers sent down for the time being.

    At least...this is the argument that can be made. I think the Flyers also know that Braun's contract is up at seasons end, and that there's at least a decent chance they decide to let him walk away. That would open up a new spot on the blue line, and the Flyers have a projected budget of around $11m next year. Nolan Patrick, Oscar Lindblom and Robert Hagg are all RFA's. I'd assume that the first two are virtual locks to be signed (Patrick just has too much upside to let walk as an RFA unless he's just never able to get over these migraines). With Braun being a UFA, Brian Elliot being a UFA and likely wanting *some* cap flexibility entering into the next year...I don't think Braun is a guarantee to return. So having at least one of Hagg/Morin around next year, possibly both, to eat that 6 spot is probably something they're heavily entertaining. You also have the looming expansion draft, and the Flyers could end up losing someone they're not excited to lose. It's easy to say "maybe we can just trade (player X)" because his contract is big, or that Seattle will just take player Y for the same reason, but you can't just assume those are going to happen and plans need to be made. Simply giving a Morin/Hagg away at this point, guys who are either signed next year or carry RFA status and could be serviceable NHL defensemen in either a 6th man role or a 6/7 swing role, would probably be short sighted.

    I also don't think Myers camp did him any favors with a coaching staff that is clearly putting a lot of stock into what their camps looked like. Myers was up and down. I'm not sure he'd have made it any ways, but at least, with the injuries, we can say it's a cap thing.

    That's the best argument I can make for it. That...essentially...they had to. To keep everyone.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 10-01-2019 at 09:29 PM.

  8. #128
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    I'm not particularly enthralled with the decisions made for the roster. Bunnaman and Twarynski are pretty uninteresting as bottom 6 forwards. Bunnaman is likely a product of being in the right place-right time in the AHL and less due to his skill and Twarynski is just a whole lot of "blah". I think far too much was placed on what they looked like in short camp times and less in terms of what these players true talent levels are.
    i get that their upside isn't very high, but they came into training camp as AHL filler and they earned roster spots in the NHL by playing hard and playing well.

    when players like that exceed expectations, it's a good thing. it's the sign of a healthy organization.
    Hopefully Farabee is back up shortly because he dominates the AHL and Morgan Frost gets healthy and does the same
    yup. let them crush lesser competition, then call them up when their confidence is high and their play is even sharper.

    if nothing else, the phantoms will be a lot of fun to watch. plus, farabee, frost, ratcliffe and myers is one hell of a talent pool to draw from when we need some mid-season callups.


    this would be a good year to get off to a fast start.

  9. #129
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    ya all of them having ahl time isn't a bad thing. Still think we should find a way for myers to be int he lineup. If that is by trading hagg then so be it. We have freidman and morin still. Both are capable of filling in. Don't mind farabee going to ahl and we all know he will be back soon. Just don't want hagg in the lineup....

    new lines might be this:

    g-hayes-voracek
    tk-couts-lindblom
    jvr-laughton-twarynski
    raffl-bunn-pitlick

    provorov-braun
    sanheim-niskanen
    ghost-hagg
    morin

    don't like many of these decisions. Switch couts and hayes, braun and niskanen. Provorov doesn't need another stop gap d partner

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    i get that their upside isn't very high, but they came into training camp as AHL filler and they earned roster spots in the NHL by playing hard and playing well.

    when players like that exceed expectations, it's a good thing. it's the sign of a healthy organization.

    yup. let them crush lesser competition, then call them up when their confidence is high and their play is even sharper.

    if nothing else, the phantoms will be a lot of fun to watch. plus, farabee, frost, ratcliffe and myers is one hell of a talent pool to draw from when we need some mid-season callups.


    this would be a good year to get off to a fast start.
    It's the sign of a healthy organization to have players compete at camp. It's not the sign of a healthy organization to ignore the large sample size for the course of a 4-5 game stint against players who are mainly going through the motions. Twarynski and Bunnaman should be commended for coming to camp and competing. It's not a good idea, however, to think that that the recency bias of 4-5 games is the new norm, especially considering the competition. It'd be one thing to say "Hmmm, these two opened our eyes. Let's monitor them through the season and see if this keeps up. They would be on the short list for AHL-NHL shuttle duty". But it's another to make them 2/3rds of an NHL line based on that stint. 4-5 games shouldn't be all it takes to "earn" anything other than a longer look in the future. It is the start of the fear that we're going to be seeing a coaching staff shuttling players in and out of the lineup to "punish them" or whatever because recency bias. And not a team who's going to be built on the overall talent. It's just a start, but it's not the best foot to start off on.

    The most likely scenario is that the AHL organizational depth players that we always believed Carson Twarynski and Conner Bunnaman to be...will be just that.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 10-02-2019 at 03:03 PM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    It's the sign of a healthy organization to have players compete at camp. It's not the sign of a healthy organization to ignore the large sample size for the course of a 4-5 game stint against players who are mainly going through the motions. Twarynski and Bunnaman should be commended for coming to camp and competing. It's not a good idea, however, to think that that the recency bias of 4-5 games is the new norm, especially considering the competition. It'd be one thing to say "Hmmm, these two opened our eyes. Let's monitor them through the season and see if this keeps up. They would be on the short list for AHL-NHL shuttle duty". But it's another to make them 2/3rds of an NHL line based on that stint. 4-5 games shouldn't be all it takes to "earn" anything other than a longer look in the future. It is the start of the fear that we're going to be seeing a coaching staff shuttling players in and out of the lineup to "punish them" or whatever because recency bias. And not a team who's going to be built on the overall talent. It's just a start, but it's not the best foot to start off on.

    The most likely scenario is that the AHL organizational depth players that we always believed Carson Twarynski and Conner Bunnaman to be...will be just that.
    they did say tht there would be a lot of movement of players in the beginning of the season. Might be ok to ride the hot hand and if they aren't up to task after 10 games, then guys like farabee, rubstov, nak can get their chance. Might help those guys more if they get more ice time in the ahl and come up with more confidence. I agree that it sucks that nak was just cut like he was after a decent year in the ahl but i think those other guys are still capable.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    they did say tht there would be a lot of movement of players in the beginning of the season. Might be ok to ride the hot hand and if they aren't up to task after 10 games, then guys like farabee, rubstov, nak can get their chance. Might help those guys more if they get more ice time in the ahl and come up with more confidence. I agree that it sucks that nak was just cut like he was after a decent year in the ahl but i think those other guys are still capable.
    We will see if that holds true or if it was more along the lines of how they handle Myers.

    I also don't really buy the 'hot hand" argument. You have to know when the luck is going to run out or you'll be stuck with a below average talent eating up minutes waiting for them to get hot again. Those guys will turn back to pumpkins. The key is selling on that before they do. I have no confidence in then being any more than JAGs. Large sample sizes will always trump small ones. I don't feel confident with a coaching staff who seems to, out of the gate, prioritize the small ones.

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  13. #133
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    It's the sign of a healthy organization to have players compete at camp. It's not the sign of a healthy organization to ignore the large sample size for the course of a 4-5 game stint against players who are mainly going through the motions
    just going through the motions has been one of the flyers' persistent issues for the last few years.
    It's not a good idea, however, to think that that the recency bias of 4-5 games is the new norm, especially considering the competition. It'd be one thing to say "Hmmm, these two opened our eyes. Let's monitor them through the season and see if this keeps up. They would be on the short list for AHL-NHL shuttle duty". But it's another to make them 2/3rds of an NHL line based on that stint.
    they're 2/3rds of a 4th line that's primarily expected to play hard for 8-10 minutes per game, provide some energy and not get run off the ice. they're not all of a sudden being relied upon to score 20+ goals each. they came into camp playing harder than anyone else, with more energy than anyone else, and they earned these roster spots because those attributes are the primary qualifications.
    It is the start of the fear that we're going to be seeing a coaching staff shuttling players in and out of the lineup to "punish them" or whatever because recency bias. And not a team who's going to be built on the overall talent.
    this isn't recency bias; it's positive reinforcement. these players set an example for what the coaching staff wants done, and they were rewarded for it.

    team success in the NHL is dependent to effort, system, discipline and so on. talent matters (a lot), but one of the best teams i've ever seen got swept in the 1st round of the playoffs last year by an 8-seed that had about as much talent as the flyers. hell, an expansion team made up of 3rd line cast-offs and journeyman defensemen managed to win 3 playoff series in their first year of existence.

    all of which is to say that when get 23 guys going in the same direction, you can go pretty damn far.
    The most likely scenario is that the AHL organizational depth players that we always believed Carson Twarynski and Conner Bunnaman to be...will be just that.
    it's not very likely that they stay in the NHL all year, but it's not necessary, either. as long as they're healthy and productive, they'll keep their spots; when that changes, i suspect other players have the opportunity to unseat them.

  14. #134
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    I'm glad the season is finally here.


    I haven't been able to follow the flyers preseason very closely at all.

    However the reading I've been doing the last few days implies the flyers arent able to actually keep the 23 guys they want to due to the pitlick, Patrick, and (insert random ahler) injuries, compounded with the salary issues they are currently in. This is also likely why Chris Stewart hasnt been given a contract yet.


    Anyone able to clarify this?
    "2008 WORLD ****ING CHAMPIONS"

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    why hagg still remains


    what argument is there for hagg over myers?
    They created this situaction by trading for two assets in Niskanen and Braun that were absolutely not needed.

    Prov-Ghost
    Sanheim-Gudas

    Was fine as a top 4 if nothing better came along and nothing did.

    And FYI, Myers was dreadful throughout the preseason. He played his way off the roster all by himself, so he can go down, get his game together, and come back.

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