Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 137

Thread: Preseason

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,192
    offensively, those guys are better than provorov and don't have a guy like ghost in his way FYI
    "in his way"?


    and, yeah, sure, doughty and keith are better than provorov, but i was responding to the idea that, because their performance collapsed in a down season (it didn't), we should ignore the fact that provorov's performance collapsed last year.
    Development isn't linear, especially for players in that situation (i.e. being expected to be "the guy" when you're barely old enough to drink legally). So before we go trying to sell low on one of the best young defensemen in the league, how about we take a breath and realize that there's a bigger picture
    development may be non-linear, but it's not voodoo magic sunshine tinkles. the specifics matter; precision matters.


    if you want to find players who might be comparable to provorov, this group seems like a decent starting point (fun fact: find the only two names that appear on the list twice):
    Code:
                                                                                            
                                               Scor Scor Scor Cors    Cors   PDO        Zone
    Rk               Player Pos  Tm  Season GP    G    A  PTS  CF% CF% rel   PDO dZS% TOI/Gm
    1         Ivan Provorov   D PHI 2017-18 82   12   16   28 49.4    -0.5 101.6 52.2   18.3
    2         Ryan McDonagh   D NYR 2011-12 82    6   19   25 49.0    -0.6 101.2 56.5   19.7
    3            Marc Staal   D NYR 2009-10 82    7   18   25 48.2    -4.2 101.9 55.2   17.7
    4            Roman Josi   D NSH 2013-14 72   11   13   24 48.7     0.0  99.4 55.8   19.5
    5         Ivan Provorov   D PHI 2018-19 82    7   14   21 47.5    -1.5  99.0 56.3   19.5
    6           Luke Schenn   D TOR 2010-11 82    5   16   21 48.3    -1.2 100.2 49.6   17.8
    7          John Carlson   D WSH 2011-12 82    4   16   20 47.8    -1.9  98.6 53.8   17.0
    8         Morgan Rielly   D TOR 2015-16 82    4   14   18 49.9    -2.2  97.7 53.2   17.6
    9    Rasmus Ristolainen   D BUF 2015-16 82    4   14   18 45.3    -3.6  98.8 56.4   18.2
    10        Samuel Girard   D COL 2018-19 82    4   13   17 49.0    -1.4 101.7 42.9   17.0
    11          Esa Lindell   D DAL 2016-17 73    5   10   15 48.7    -3.2 101.6 52.9   17.9
    12          Ryan Murray   D CBJ 2015-16 82    3    9   12 47.5    -0.9 100.1 52.4   17.1
    13          Luke Schenn   D TOR 2008-09 70    1   11   12 48.5    -4.2  99.0 47.5   17.1
    14        Mike Matheson   D FLA 2016-17 81    6    5   11 49.6    -1.3  99.0 52.3   17.0
    15          Jake McCabe   D BUF 2015-16 77    3    8   11 47.2    -0.2  99.7 50.8   17.0
    16         Jonas Brodin   D MIN 2013-14 79    5    5   10 47.0    -4.8 100.1 49.1   19.0

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,581
    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    "in his way"?


    and, yeah, sure, doughty and keith are better than provorov, but i was responding to the idea that, because their performance collapsed in a down season (it didn't), we should ignore the fact that provorov's performance collapsed last year.
    development may be non-linear, but it's not voodoo magic sunshine tinkles. the specifics matter; precision matters.


    if you want to find players who might be comparable to provorov, this group seems like a decent starting point (fun fact: find the only two names that appear on the list twice):
    Code:
                                                                                            
                                               Scor Scor Scor Cors    Cors   PDO        Zone
    Rk               Player Pos  Tm  Season GP    G    A  PTS  CF% CF% rel   PDO dZS% TOI/Gm
    1         Ivan Provorov   D PHI 2017-18 82   12   16   28 49.4    -0.5 101.6 52.2   18.3
    2         Ryan McDonagh   D NYR 2011-12 82    6   19   25 49.0    -0.6 101.2 56.5   19.7
    3            Marc Staal   D NYR 2009-10 82    7   18   25 48.2    -4.2 101.9 55.2   17.7
    4            Roman Josi   D NSH 2013-14 72   11   13   24 48.7     0.0  99.4 55.8   19.5
    5         Ivan Provorov   D PHI 2018-19 82    7   14   21 47.5    -1.5  99.0 56.3   19.5
    6           Luke Schenn   D TOR 2010-11 82    5   16   21 48.3    -1.2 100.2 49.6   17.8
    7          John Carlson   D WSH 2011-12 82    4   16   20 47.8    -1.9  98.6 53.8   17.0
    8         Morgan Rielly   D TOR 2015-16 82    4   14   18 49.9    -2.2  97.7 53.2   17.6
    9    Rasmus Ristolainen   D BUF 2015-16 82    4   14   18 45.3    -3.6  98.8 56.4   18.2
    10        Samuel Girard   D COL 2018-19 82    4   13   17 49.0    -1.4 101.7 42.9   17.0
    11          Esa Lindell   D DAL 2016-17 73    5   10   15 48.7    -3.2 101.6 52.9   17.9
    12          Ryan Murray   D CBJ 2015-16 82    3    9   12 47.5    -0.9 100.1 52.4   17.1
    13          Luke Schenn   D TOR 2008-09 70    1   11   12 48.5    -4.2  99.0 47.5   17.1
    14        Mike Matheson   D FLA 2016-17 81    6    5   11 49.6    -1.3  99.0 52.3   17.0
    15          Jake McCabe   D BUF 2015-16 77    3    8   11 47.2    -0.2  99.7 50.8   17.0
    16         Jonas Brodin   D MIN 2013-14 79    5    5   10 47.0    -4.8 100.1 49.1   19.0
    yes in his way....basically the powerplay. While provy isn't on the offensive level of doughty, keith, or werenski/heiskanen/dahlin he isn't bad. If ghost wasn't a flyer, provorov would've been on the top pp unit all 3 years and would've easily gotten 5-10 more points at the min.

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,581
    What are y'all thoughts on ghost having some pk time?

    I think bunnaman or twarynski will make the team. Twarynski probably is suited more for a 4th line role but bunnaman is the better player offensively. Also, get hagg the heck off this team. Freidman is so much better. He and morin should be fighting for the 7th man duties. Hagg needs to go.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,848
    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    yes in his way....basically the powerplay. While provy isn't on the offensive level of doughty, keith, or werenski/heiskanen/dahlin he isn't bad. If ghost wasn't a flyer, provorov would've been on the top pp unit all 3 years and would've easily gotten 5-10 more points at the min.
    Keith generated the vast majority of his offense from assists -- it's not like he's EK rushing the puck up the ice. Doughty & Werenski are both more "4th forward" minded, which Provorov is not. I'd say he's more along the lines of a Pronger or Lidstrom (stylistic) that erases mistakes on the backend & is able to immediately "counterpunch" with a high IQ, pinpoint pass up ice to create offense. That approach tends to result in a lot of secondary assists (i.e. pass to set up 2-on-1; recipient sets up goal scorer); Provorov actually scored a fair number of his goals 2 seasons ago as the trailer on those exact plays.

    I'm not worried about Provorov, and he's not Luke Schenn steagles. We get that you loathe everything about Hextall & believe he did nothing right. But the evidence suggests thata) Provorov suffered a severe shoulder injury during the '18 playoffs; (b) Provorov regressed substantially to begin 18-19; he improved as the season progressed; (c) he continued to play some of the most difficult minutes in the NHL as a 21/22 year old.

    He's had 3 NHL seasons & 2 were quite good, all things considered. I'm not saying this is voodoo magic (nice straw man argument there), but I am saying that all of the available data suggests that players -- especially defensemen & goalies -- mature in nonlinear fashion. For some that manifests as down years, for others that's periods of "consistent" performance followed by a breakout, for others its fits & starts. Sometimes its OK to just say that a young player had a down year & we need to collect more data.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,581
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace23 View Post
    Keith generated the vast majority of his offense from assists -- it's not like he's EK rushing the puck up the ice. Doughty & Werenski are both more "4th forward" minded, which Provorov is not. I'd say he's more along the lines of a Pronger or Lidstrom (stylistic) that erases mistakes on the backend & is able to immediately "counterpunch" with a high IQ, pinpoint pass up ice to create offense. That approach tends to result in a lot of secondary assists (i.e. pass to set up 2-on-1; recipient sets up goal scorer); Provorov actually scored a fair number of his goals 2 seasons ago as the trailer on those exact plays.

    I'm not worried about Provorov, and he's not Luke Schenn steagles. We get that you loathe everything about Hextall & believe he did nothing right. But the evidence suggests thata) Provorov suffered a severe shoulder injury during the '18 playoffs; (b) Provorov regressed substantially to begin 18-19; he improved as the season progressed; (c) he continued to play some of the most difficult minutes in the NHL as a 21/22 year old.

    He's had 3 NHL seasons & 2 were quite good, all things considered. I'm not saying this is voodoo magic (nice straw man argument there), but I am saying that all of the available data suggests that players -- especially defensemen & goalies -- mature in nonlinear fashion. For some that manifests as down years, for others that's periods of "consistent" performance followed by a breakout, for others its fits & starts. Sometimes its OK to just say that a young player had a down year & we need to collect more data.
    ya i agree. was just noting that provorov doesn't play the minutes those guy's do on the pp or his stats would be a bit higher. I'm actually glad provorov had a down year this year. If there was anytime to have one this was it. Now there is a new system, a new coach, a deeper team. I think this will be one of the best years from provorov and/or ghost. It might not reflect it career-wise offensively, but I think they will help the team overall more.

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,192
    I'm not worried about Provorov, and he's not Luke Schenn steagles
    it wasn't a hard comp; i just thought it was funny.
    What are y'all thoughts on ghost having some pk time?
    he's the 8th best PKer among the defensemen likely to make the opening day roster (provorov, niskanen, ghost, sanheim, myers, braun, hagg, morin), so it seems unlikely that he'll be used as a PKer when the games matter.
    Sometimes its OK to just say that a young player had a down year & we need to collect more data
    i just completely disagree.

    when you say something like "i don't know why he played poorly; i'll just pretend that he didn't played poorly; i hope he plays less poorly next time", then where do you go from there?

    at least when an opinion is wrong, you can trace it back to understand the reasons why it was wrong.
    Also, get hagg the heck off this team. Freidman is so much better. He and morin should be fighting for the 7th man duties. Hagg needs to go.
    nah. why call friedman up if he's just going to sit in the press box? let him develop in the AHL (26 points and -3 in 75 GP last year in the AHL doesn't demand an immediate callup, imo), and when injuries inevitably happen, he'll be ready to fill in.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8,262
    https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2019/09/23...019-20-season/

    this is pretty accurate and our whole problem.

    I'm tired of having a farm system full of ceiling, high end 2nd line players, even frost and farabee i don't see as a dynamic force that will give other teams something to deal with in terms of speed or just outrageous talent ... great, we have an acknowledged 'incredibly deep farm system' ... how does that get us any closer to a cup when we still lack goal scoring? Hayes is not going to cure our inability to put the puck in the net or score 1st at a higher frequency ... someone like Laine would ... the old, bolder flyers would make a sell the future move and I can see why, and i'm back on board with that now that we can afford it ... we don't need 7 years to build the bottom half of the roster; we need to hit on a hidden gem (think we've kinda done that, but not a true 'gem' like a Datsyuk or even Pasternak (even end of first round hit)) ... or ace the top of the draft (we certainly did not do that, and i was a huge patrick guy given what he showed as a 16 at brandon) ... Hextall was a GOOD drafter, a great drafter would have landed us something a bit more special like a Pettersson, Pasternak, a bold move to jump up and get a Kyle Connor or Barzal instead of waiting for TK (and i really like TK, but he doesn't bury the puck like Connor), a Brayden Point ...

    i think we are in-line to miss the playoffs again or be eliminated in the 1st round unless Hart stands on his head all year because Elliott sucks ... and that is not the way to do this ... ... We need to fully blow this team up, and we really can't do that either at this point ... I see so many teams ahead of us in terms of roster construction and high end young talent, i don't see how we get by the 1st round even if we do make the playoffs ... Caps, Pens, Columbus, Boston, Carolina, and Jersey

    just disappointment after disappointment

    maybe our player development sucks, maybe it is a lot of things ... but we certainly don't have what a lot of other teams have - the next generation of NHL superstars on the team already ... we have been superstarless for about 8 years now, with the notable exception of our local favorite in Couturier ... it's been essentially nothing special since Pronger went down ... the whole 'G is a superstar' is great and all ... but he really isn't, and isn't acknowledged as one nationally for a reason

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,581
    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2019/09/23...019-20-season/ Hextall was a GOOD drafter, a great drafter would have landed us something a bit more special like a Pettersson, Pasternak, a bold move to jump up and get a Kyle Connor or Barzal instead of waiting for TK (and i really like TK, but he doesn't bury the puck like Connor), a Brayden Point ...

    i think we are in-line to miss the playoffs again or be eliminated in the 1st round unless Hart stands on his head all year because Elliott sucks ... and that is not the way to do this ... ... We need to fully blow this team up, and we really can't do that either at this point ... I see so many teams ahead of us in terms of roster construction and high end young talent, i don't see how we get by the 1st round even if we do make the playoffs ... Caps, Pens, Columbus, Boston, Carolina, and Jersey

    just disappointment after disappointment

    maybe our player development sucks, maybe it is a lot of things ... but we certainly don't have what a lot of other teams have - the next generation of NHL superstars on the team already ... we have been superstarless for about 8 years now, with the notable exception of our local favorite in Couturier ... it's been essentially nothing special since Pronger went down ... the whole 'G is a superstar' is great and all ... but he really isn't, and isn't acknowledged as one nationally for a reason
    Well we need couts to keep being who he is and try to take another step offensively if he can. We also need out defense to be our biggest weapon, similar to carolina. IF that can happen then we should match up with other teams. Patrick needs to step the F up. He was the guy we thought would take the reigns next.

    Also, hextall was the guy who drafted patrick over pettersson, didn;'t move up to snag connor, didnt get pasta...And if we were going to trade a bunch of players for laine, id rather just go after connor. Patrick, pick or prospect, hagg should get it done

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,192
    okay, so much of that is right in my wheelhouse. where to begin....
    I'm tired of having a farm system full of ceiling, high end 2nd line players
    this is actually one of the things i liked about hextall's drafting. nearly every forward he drafted outside of the first round had the same physical skillset: around 6'1, around 185 lbs, good speed, skating, toughness and physicality. he wasn't swinging for the fences; he was just consistently hitting doubles.

    i think that approach was actually pretty successful, but hextall didn't last long enough as GM to reap the rewards...and players have just stalled out once they got to the phantoms.
    the old, bolder flyers would make a sell the future move and I can see why, and i'm back on board with that now that we can afford it
    which is why i keep talking about shopping provorov. when you're hunting big game, you need to start with the right bait.
    We need to fully blow this team up, and we really can't do that either at this point .
    the way i see it, going forward:

    -- hayes and couturier are 2 of my 3 centers, but i want a third guy.
    -- giroux, konecny, frost, farabee, ratcliffe and patrick are my wings.
    -- that leaves voracek, JVR, lindblom and laughton as pivots.
    ---- if they play better than expected, they can stay
    ---- if any of the others play worse, they can stay
    ---- if there's no sufficient trade market for them, they can stay

    -- i'm bought in on ghost and sanheim.
    -- i'm on the fence about provorov.
    ---- his contract pays him like a #2, which, i guess is fair...except:
    ---- i think we need someone better than him in order to be a contender, and:
    ---- if we can get someone better than provorov...we won't really need provorov anymore.

    -- in terms of prospects, that leaves us with:
    centers: rubtsov, vorobyev, obrien, *crickets*
    wings: brink, kase, sushko, bunnaman, strome, etc.
    D: york, friedman, attard, ginning, hogberg, kalynuk, etc.
    G: sandstrom, ustimenko, ersson, etc.


    targets ::
    -- #1A/1B center
    larkin, barkov, eichel, seguin, toews
    ---- DET and BUF are in the same situation we are; barkov is nearing the end of his contract; seguin was just getting slagged by his team's controlling shareholder; CHI may be close to disintegrating after two bad seasons.

    -- #1D
    doughty, pietrangelo, OEL, ekblad, keith
    ---- man, if we had gotten trouba or subban this summer, that could have been a gamechanger.
    ---- that being said, LAK is disintegrating, pietrangelo is a UFA this summer; OEL is always on the trade block; ekblad...who the hell knows what's going on with FLA; CHI might be ready for a rebuild.


    ammunition ::
    provorov, voracek, patrick, JVR, lindblom, laughton, hagg
    future draft picks
    cash


    possible lineup going forward:
    giroux - couturier - konecny
    frost - seguin - JVR/ratcliffe/lindblom/laughton
    farabee - hayes - patrick

    sanheim - keith
    ghost - provorov
    morin - (whoever)

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,581
    chi ready for a rebuild? They believe they can make the playoffs, along with the blues, stars, coyotes, panthers...Oel, ekblad, keith (im not trading prospects for an aging defender who marginally makes us better), barkov, seguin, toews, larkin (detroits future) is not going away lol.

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,581
    so we have this bottom 6 right now:

    jvr/lindblom-X-X
    raffl-laughton-X

    twarynski, bunnaman, stewart, frost, farabee are left for 3 spots and 1 extra forward. Assuming patrick and pitlick are still injured come preseason 4/5 of those guys are making it. Hate seeing stewart there and you can alsmot tell we will keep him because we won't have 4 rookies come.

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,192
    chi ready for a rebuild? They believe they can make the playoffs, along with the blues, stars, coyotes, panthers
    i'm sure they all think that...but what will they do if they're wrong?
    keith (im not trading prospects for an aging defender who marginally makes us better)
    keith's cap hit is 5.5MM, and because of its structure, it'll be easy to dump him if his play tanks after this year.

    what you're paying for:
    -- keith is still ~80+% of what he was at his peak
    -- he can still play at 100% in short bursts
    -- his cap hit is average for a top 4 D
    -- PP- and PK-ability
    -- 0.0% risk of cap problems
    -- experience and leadership


    at a certain point, the only improvements you can make are marginal ones. we're not there yet, but you're never going to get there until you start trying.

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,123
    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    so we have this bottom 6 right now:

    jvr/lindblom-X-X
    raffl-laughton-X

    twarynski, bunnaman, stewart, frost, farabee are left for 3 spots and 1 extra forward. Assuming patrick and pitlick are still injured come preseason 4/5 of those guys are making it. Hate seeing stewart there and you can alsmot tell we will keep him because we won't have 4 rookies come.
    Stewart will be the guy sitting in the press box. I'd hate to see one of the young guys doing that.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,123
    " Hayes is not going to cure our inability to put the puck in the net or score 1st at a higher frequency " Hayes will surely help with keeping the puck out of our own net.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,581
    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    i'm sure they all think that...but what will they do if they're wrong?

    keith's cap hit is 5.5MM, and because of its structure, it'll be easy to dump him if his play tanks after this year.

    what you're paying for:
    -- keith is still ~80+% of what he was at his peak
    -- he can still play at 100% in short bursts
    -- his cap hit is average for a top 4 D
    -- PP- and PK-ability
    -- 0.0% risk of cap problems
    -- experience and leadership


    at a certain point, the only improvements you can make are marginal ones. we're not there yet, but you're never going to get there until you start trying.
    ya but at what cost? We aren't winning so whats the point in a rental? We would have to give up a high pick and prospect for a big name rental like that. HUGE pass. We have spent enough on our defense. Lets see what we got and have our young d get into more game situations to grow quicker.

Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •