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Thread: Preseason

  1. #61
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    Hughes, Hischier, and Pettersson are all scary good. And we missed on all of them ... I count Hughes because we had the ammo to trade up for him

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    Hughes, Hischier, and Pettersson are all scary good. And we missed on all of them ... I count Hughes because we had the ammo to trade up for him
    The Flyers are an improved team and have some very good young talent but New Jersey is stacked. The Flyers are in an extremely tough division.

  3. #63
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    The Flyers are an improved team and have some very good young talent but New Jersey is stacked. The Flyers are in an extremely tough division.
    since 2016, NJD:
    -- signed: simmonds and butcher
    -- traded for: hall, gusev, subban, vatanen, mueller and carrick
    -- while drafting: hischier, hughes, bratt, anderson, mcleod, bastian (and about 30 others who haven't debuted yet)


    over a similar time period, ron hextall:
    -- signed: JVR, myers and elliott
    -- traded for: gudas
    -- while drafting: patrick, konecny, lindblom, NAK, vorobyev, provorov, sanheim, friedman, hart (and about 30 others who haven't debuted yet)


    in less than one year, chuck fletcher:
    -- signed: hayes
    -- traded for: niskanen and braun
    -- while drafting: (york, brink and a handful of others)



    there are some things worth pointing out about the players NJD traded for:

    - they made exceptional deals for subban and hall.
    == larsson for hall
    == santini, davies and two 2nd round picks for subban
    ====
    :::: if someone wants to hand you $100, you don't laugh in their face because it's not $150 (cough, cough ryan oreilly cough)
    :::: when you make deals like these, you can get real good, real fast.
    - they traded for players who are in, or entering, their prime
    == hall was 25
    == vatanen was 26
    == gusev is 27
    == subban is a bit older (30)
    ====
    :::: even though NJD has been pretty awful, these players still have good years left
    :::: even if NJD doesn't get good, these players have positive trade value because of how little NJ gave up to get them.

    - among trades that NJD made that aren't listed:
    == brian boyle for a 2nd round pick
    ---- they signed him as a free agent, got 1.5 years of decent-ish play at 3C, then sold him for a pretty good pick
    ---- NJD paid boyle 5MM for 26 G and 41 PTS over 116 games
    ---- we paid dale weise 9MM for 17 G and 34 PTS over 152 games
    ---- we paid jori lehtera 10MM for 4 G and 11 PTS over 89 games
    ---- we paid valtteri filppula 10MM for 16 G and 41 PTS over 101 games

    == ben lovejoy for a 3rd round pick and connor carrick
    ---- lovejoy retired at the end of the year
    ---- carrick isn't great, but he's 25 years old, he's cheap and he has 200 games of NHL experience.

    == marcus johannson
    ---- NJD gave up a 2 and a 3 to get him
    ---- he was 27 years old
    ---- he played pretty poorly for a year and a half (17 G and 41 PTS in 77 games)
    ---- NJD traded him to BOS for a 2 and a 4.


    tl;dr:
    :: NJD didn't just tank for picks and hope their prospects would pan out.
    :: they hit on some very opportunistic trades
    :: they made a number of other shrewd trades/signings
    :: even when something didn't work out as planned, NJD found ways to salvage value, instead of just eating the loss.

  4. #64
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    they also got number 1 twice and hit on both. they did get lucky too, didn't have the cap situation we had, we still had more talent then them overall, and we did hit on better prospects at certain times (provorov, tk, hart while they got zacha)
    Last edited by 3iverson3; 09-22-2019 at 02:28 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    they also got number 1 twice and hit on both. they did get lucky too, didn't have the cap situation we had, we still had more talent then them overall, and we did hit on better prospects at certain times (provorov, tk, hart while they got zacha)
    Yep. Can't make that stuff up. They were gifted Hischier and Hughes via the lottery. And sorry, but even so the Flyers still have a much strong foundation than NJ.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    Hughes, Hischier, and Pettersson are all scary good. And we missed on all of them ... I count Hughes because we had the ammo to trade up for him
    There were 0 realistic scenarios where the Flyers trade up to #1 to get him. Just stop.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    since 2016, NJD:
    -- signed: simmonds and butcher
    -- traded for: hall, gusev, subban, vatanen, mueller and carrick
    -- while drafting: hischier, hughes, bratt, anderson, mcleod, bastian (and about 30 others who haven't debuted yet)


    over a similar time period, ron hextall:
    -- signed: JVR, myers and elliott
    -- traded for: gudas
    -- while drafting: patrick, konecny, lindblom, NAK, vorobyev, provorov, sanheim, friedman, hart (and about 30 others who haven't debuted yet)


    in less than one year, chuck fletcher:
    -- signed: hayes
    -- traded for: niskanen and braun
    -- while drafting: (york, brink and a handful of others)



    there are some things worth pointing out about the players NJD traded for:

    - they made exceptional deals for subban and hall.
    == larsson for hall
    == santini, davies and two 2nd round picks for subban
    ====
    :::: if someone wants to hand you $100, you don't laugh in their face because it's not $150 (cough, cough ryan oreilly cough)
    :::: when you make deals like these, you can get real good, real fast.
    - they traded for players who are in, or entering, their prime
    == hall was 25
    == vatanen was 26
    == gusev is 27
    == subban is a bit older (30)
    ====
    :::: even though NJD has been pretty awful, these players still have good years left
    :::: even if NJD doesn't get good, these players have positive trade value because of how little NJ gave up to get them.

    - among trades that NJD made that aren't listed:
    == brian boyle for a 2nd round pick
    ---- they signed him as a free agent, got 1.5 years of decent-ish play at 3C, then sold him for a pretty good pick
    ---- NJD paid boyle 5MM for 26 G and 41 PTS over 116 games
    ---- we paid dale weise 9MM for 17 G and 34 PTS over 152 games
    ---- we paid jori lehtera 10MM for 4 G and 11 PTS over 89 games
    ---- we paid valtteri filppula 10MM for 16 G and 41 PTS over 101 games

    == ben lovejoy for a 3rd round pick and connor carrick
    ---- lovejoy retired at the end of the year
    ---- carrick isn't great, but he's 25 years old, he's cheap and he has 200 games of NHL experience.

    == marcus johannson
    ---- NJD gave up a 2 and a 3 to get him
    ---- he was 27 years old
    ---- he played pretty poorly for a year and a half (17 G and 41 PTS in 77 games)
    ---- NJD traded him to BOS for a 2 and a 4.


    tl;dr:
    :: NJD didn't just tank for picks and hope their prospects would pan out.
    :: they hit on some very opportunistic trades
    :: they made a number of other shrewd trades/signings
    :: even when something didn't work out as planned, NJD found ways to salvage value, instead of just eating the loss.
    And...the Flyers are still in a better situation than the Devils. Are you ever going to move past Hextall? It's been almost a year since he's been here. Let go and move forward.

  8. #68
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    we still have to prove we have a better foundation/situation than the devils and rangers. They aren't far off now that the rangers got panarin, trouba, kakko and the devils hughes, subban.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    I love sanheim as much as the next guy but i think we all value him just as we did provorov. One bad year from sanheim and we will rip into him like we have with provorov now lol. Also, if provorov is never what we envisioned, his contract is still fine. Guy is a workhorse, hasn't missed a game, plays through injuries, defends/plays big minutes. Sanheim could not do all that. He barely will start seeing full duty pk minutes this year...
    he also wasnt anchored with ghost/amac... its hilarious these dudes trying to make points to knock this guy but negate the situation he had to deal with... prov def didnt play at a high level but he also wasnt given the advantages everyone else had... When Ghost was struggling they forced on on prov... then they put amac on prov etc lol.... Horrid ****ing goalies/horrid defensemen and prov was still out there the majority of the power plays against and minutes played etc.... my god people get a ****ing clue... Sanheim? REALLY? I like him but gtfo

    The second sanheim has a stretch where he is not as great the pitch ****ing forks will be out for him and he still wont do what prov has done.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    i tend to do this exercise (or something like it) once or twice year, and since it's been a while, and since this seems like a good time, let's go:

    tier 1 -- foundational players:
    F: couturier, giroux
    D:
    G: hart

    tier 2 -- core players:
    F: hayes, konecny
    D: sanheim, ghost, myers
    G:

    tier 3 -- trade bait (the good kind):
    F: JVR, voracek, patrick
    D: provorov, hagg

    G: elliott

    tier 4 -- more valuable to the flyers than anyone else:
    F: lindblom, laughton, raffl, pitlick
    D: niskanen, braun, morin
    G:

    tier 5 -- trade bait (the bad kind):
    F:
    D:
    G:


    a few caveats
    -- these are based on my own personal values, so while you may like provorov, i need to see more from him before i crown him.

    -- related to that, i tend to be a tough grader.

    -- the tiers are not entirely linear. performance is the main factor, but age, contract, style of play, positional depth, etc. are also considered.

    -- i didn't include prospects who haven't played some number of NHL games yet (so, no frost, farabee, ratcliffe, sandstrom)

    -- i also didn't include prospects who have debuted, but who are questionable to make the 23 man roster (vorobyev, NAK, friedman)

    -- tier 5 is empty right now, but at this time last year, it would have included weise, macdonald, lehtera (plus maybe neuvirth, and possibly folin, raffl, weal, elliott). in previous years, tier 5 has included nick schultz, PEB, filppula, read, umberger, VLC, etc.

    -- there were a lot of things i didn't like about the hextall era, but i think what i hated most was spending 1/4 of the cap every single ****ing season on some of the worst players in the NHL.


    lmfao its probably better i dont post in this area s much with this **** xD.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    in a scenario where
    ---- provorov has the same caliber of season he had last year
    ---- sanheim takes a moderate step forward
    ---- ghost and niskanen split the difference between their last 2/3 seasons
    -- provorov would be our 4th best defenseman.

    i don't think any of those conditions are unlikely, and so i tend to view provorov with more skepticism than alot of other fans. in this scenario (or a roughly comparable one), trading provorov would:

    -- yield a substantial return
    -- create room for sanheim and myers to grow into larger roles
    -- not hurt us (too badly) on the ice



    tl;dr:
    provorov just needs to play better.
    lol prov needs to play better but yet you have ghost above him????????????????????????????????????????? Ghost was ****ing horrid last year.... my god.


    Prov will always be MUCH better defensively where Ghost will always be slightly better offensively... give me the Dman that can actually play DEFENSE


    1 guy is 22 and still learning while already better period and the other guy is 26 but yes Ghost is above Prov lmfao. FML... 1 guy was handicapped with Amac and wait for it GHOST himself when both guys were *** while the other guy was put next to the guy that is younger and better... INTERESTING
    Last edited by More-Than-Most; 09-23-2019 at 02:44 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    [emoji23]

    lmfao its probably better i dont post in this area s much with this **** xD.
    Hayes is there by default because Fletcher overpaid significantly to get him (and there's no way to realistically move him). So he might as well go there.

    It's fine to be a "tough grader" -- but context matters. Provorov is still 22. He's played some of the most difficult minutes in the NHL. He had a very bad first half of the season and slowly rounded back into form over the 2nd half. I'm not going to completely discount his 2017-18 season because 2018-19 was pretty bad (I'd grade it somewhere between a C & D, where the previous season was easily a B+ or A-).

    Development isn't linear, especially for players in that situation (i.e. being expected to be "the guy" when you're barely old enough to drink legally). So before we go trying to sell low on one of the best young defensemen in the league, how about we take a breath and realize that there's a bigger picture.

    Hell, everyone forgets that this SAME thing happened to Drew Doughty in his 3rd season (he was coming off an incredible 2nd season, too). He was pretty damn bad. Also happened to Duncan Keith in his age 23 season (he didn't enter the NHL until 22). Had a fantastic rookie season, then a bit of a "sophomore slump." It happens. Smart GMs understand that patience, exercised prudently, is a virtue.

    Everyone needs to realize that the Flyers have one of the best young cores in the league. Farabee & Frost both have high end ability. Ratcliffe is impressive. Hart is the best goalie prospect I've seen since Price. Sanheim, Provorov & Myers are all legitimate top-4 talents today with top-2 or better upside. Konecny, Lindblom & Patrick all have LOADS of untapped potential. Couturier is easily a top-15 C in the NHL by just about any measure. Giroux is still an elite playmaker. Voracek is a top-10 RW. JVR is still good for 30-35 goals per 82 games. Hayes is a solid 2C.

    There are a lot of good pieces here. Vigneault is a hell of a coach. Let's see what they can do before we burn everything to the ground.

  13. #73
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    Hayes is there by default because Fletcher overpaid significantly to get him (and there's no way to realistically move him). So he might as well go there.
    plus, hayes has a "no-movement clause"; he's 3 years younger than both voracek and JVR; we have more options on the wing than we have at center.
    1 guy is 22 and still learning while already better period and the other guy is 26 but yes Ghost is above Prov lmfao. FML... 1 guy was handicapped with Amac and wait for it GHOST himself when both guys were *** while the other guy was put next to the guy that is younger and better... INTERESTING
    all 3 of them were ****.

    also, ghost was handicapped, too, btw. he's at his best when he's jumping up into the offensive zone and playing like a 4th forward, and he can't do that when the rest of the team plays like ****. when the team stabilized, after firing hextall, hakstol, weise, lehtera and neuvirth into the sun, ghost's production basically recovered to his previously established level:

    pre-1/12 (the last game with weise):
    2.7 GS/GP, 3.6 GA/GP
    ghost: 45 GP, 17 PTS (9 ES), -16
    provorov: 45 GP, 14 PTS (13 ES), -17
    sanheim: 45 GP, 13 PTS (11 ES), -8

    after 1/14 (the first game without weise):
    3.4 GS/GP, 3.4 GA/GP
    ghost: 33 GP, 20 PTS (14 ES), -4
    provorov: 37 GP, 12 PTS (11 ES), +1
    sanheim: 37 GP, 22 PTS (19 ES), +4


    the way i interpret those numbers:
    - ghost found his sea-legs in the 2nd half of the year, going from 31 to 49 PTS/82 GP. granted, that is still short of his typical season, but the difference was on the PP, rather than at even strength.
    - provorov was the same player for the entire season as the team improved around him.
    - sanheim might have turned into a monster. i'm gonna repeat that because it may be kind of important:
    - sanheim might have turned into a monster.
    Last edited by steagles; 09-23-2019 at 02:35 PM.

  14. #74
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    Hell, everyone forgets that this SAME thing happened to Drew Doughty in his 3rd season (he was coming off an incredible 2nd season, too). He was pretty damn bad. Also happened to Duncan Keith in his age 23 season (he didn't enter the NHL until 22). Had a fantastic rookie season, then a bit of a "sophomore slump." It happens. Smart GMs understand that patience, exercised prudently, is a virtue.
    doughty (year 2): 59 PTS, 53% CF%, 25 MPG, +20
    doughty (year 3): 40 PTS, 54% CF%, 26 MPG, +13
    doughty (norris): 51 PTS, 58% CF%, 28 MPG, +24

    keith (year 1): 21 PTS, 51% CF%, 23 MPG, -11
    keith (year 2): 31 PTS, 56% CF%, 23 MPG, 0
    keith (year 3): 32 PTS, 57% CF%, 26 MPG, +30
    keith (norris #1): 69 PTS, 57% CF%, 27 MPG, +21
    keith (norris #2): 61 PTS, 57% CF%, 25 MPG, +22

    provorov (year 2): 41 PTS, 49% CF%, 24 MPG, +14
    provorov (year 3): 26 PTS, 47% CF%, 25 MPG, -16
    Last edited by steagles; 09-23-2019 at 02:59 PM.

  15. #75
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    offensively, those guys are better than provorov and don't have a guy like ghost in his way FYI

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