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Thread: Preseason

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Right. But that's also what the sliding scale is with perspective. If he drives a line...great. Deal is likely a surplus value and a clear win. If he's only a passenger on a good line (capable of playing well with good linemates but also not able to support a line without players like Giroux and Couturier doing the heavy lifting) then I find the deal is a good bit more on the mediocre side. If he's a passenger, then he's likely replaceable for cheaper from within the system at some point. And in the cap era, you have to find cheap wins places. That won't mean he's a debacle of a contract...only one where a similar player could be had for a fraction of the cost.

    I'm also less worried about counting stats. Scoring 20-25 doesn't necessitate a good player all the time. Or at least, a good overall and well rounded one. We saw that with Simmonds; stud on the PP but most of the game was at best "there" and at worst "an anchor". Counting stats can hide things based on opportunity presented and shroud the talent behind it. It's why baseball statistics have gone completely away from them, and I assume, it's where hockey stats are going (things like corsi and fenwick, for example, are rates, not counting). This isn't saying anything about Koneceny, as I think he's a fine player, but generally speaking the counting stats aren't as important to me.
    i get what you are saying but I don't see tk being an anchor really. Simmonds was kind of that his whole time while he was here at even strength. TK DOES his damage at even strength and that is something this team desperately needs. TK needs to shoot more. He should have like 210+ sog every year and he can easily get 30 goals

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    As much as Steagles pisses me off with his Dan Boyle comments or his other weird fringe player love, I do agree with him on the provorov deal and the points he listed (PP usage is huge - Ghost and Sanheim will do that) .... id add another bullet to that list too - Travis Sanheim’s emergence ... I think he emerges as a true #1 offensively with him and Myers being “the pairing” in 2020/2021 ... Sanheim’s numbers jump off the page at you, and he played through just as bad of coaching ...

    I’d love to be wrong, but that is a huge bet on someone who hasn’t gotten better 3 straight years. A plateau in year 3 is tough. I own a provorov jersey, I’m saying this objectively. He needs a huge bounce back.

    All I think about is if we got someone like Hughes or Pettersson instead of Patrick ... it’s just like what ACE said about Kane vs JVR again and I’m concerned about having any dynamic center on this team ... Couturier is elite, wouldn’t call him dynamic offensively just yet ... Hayes is good, certainly not dynamic ... Patty is injured, again, and has shown like 4 games where I think ... “we saw a flash of an elite center” ... which is terrifying.

    TK is tradable, so whatever, and he is our only speed wing who can shoot. We need him.

    I have doubts we will be able to find another diamond in the rough at C like G with this front office.

    Morgan Frost is a full year away, minimum, and I don’t see him playing center unless he eats nothing but steak for 3 years. He needs 2 full AHL years after seeing what I saw.

    Farabee is going to make the squad out of camp, and he isn’t ready just yet, so being rushed.
    at this point I think we need more dynamic wingers than centers.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    i get what you are saying but I don't see tk being an anchor really. Simmonds was kind of that his whole time while he was here at even strength. TK DOES his damage at even strength and that is something this team desperately needs. TK needs to shoot more. He should have like 210+ sog every year and he can easily get 30 goals
    TK isn't an anchor. Not at all. But he also hasn't done much when he isnt in a top pairing line. Whether it's 5v5 or not, to date he's a passenger of a line. When you give him elite talent, he's a good player. But he also disappears every time you ask him to drive play more on his own. It's my concern heading forward. At $5.5m, it's just an average contract on 6 years if that's what he is going to be.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  4. #34
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    I love sanheim as much as the next guy but i think we all value him just as we did provorov. One bad year from sanheim and we will rip into him like we have with provorov now lol. Also, if provorov is never what we envisioned, his contract is still fine. Guy is a workhorse, hasn't missed a game, plays through injuries, defends/plays big minutes. Sanheim could not do all that. He barely will start seeing full duty pk minutes this year...

  5. #35
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    i think we are all blowing up one bad season from provorov too much. We are expecting him to be a norris guy every year and if he falls short we just assume he isn't good at defense. I highly doubt he is hard to play with lol. Ghost did fine with him a few years ago. He will still play 24-25 minutes a game with less pp time.
    firstly:
    what i described was the downside scenario, not an expected one. i was asked what the downside for provorov looks like, and that's what it looks like.

    again, the downside is that we've overrated his offensive ability (based on the 17 goal season two years ago), that his defensive performance lags (for whatever reason), and that as a result, his icetime, which is the one stat everyone talks up (because most of provorov's other stats are kind of ugly) will be a detriment rather than an asset because it will take icetime away from players who are more productive (sanheim, myers, ghost).
    I love sanheim as much as the next guy but i think we all value him just as we did provorov. One bad year from sanheim and we will rip into him like we have with provorov now lol. Also, if provorov is never what we envisioned, his contract is still fine. Guy is a workhorse, hasn't missed a game, plays through injuries, defends/plays big minutes. Sanheim could not do all that. He barely will start seeing full duty pk minutes this year...
    if you play well, you won't get ripped (as much). when you play like ****, you eat it.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    at this point I think we need more dynamic wingers than centers.
    G, Voracek, TK, Lindblom, JVR ... I could see you wanting a tad more speed, but we have some of the best wings in the league

  7. #37
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    Ed (laughing, tongue somewhat in cheek): “Now Michael Vick is the best quarterback in the NFL today, and LeSean McCoy is the best running back, ever.”

    Ray (trying to reel the governor in): “How about this, you’re 3-4, you’re 3-4 … “

    And this is when it happened. Suddenly, Ray cupped his hands around his mouth to project his voice, and announced to the world:

    “REALITY CHECK! WE HAVE ALL THESE GUYS WHO ARE THE GREATEST WHO HAVE EVER PLAYED, BUT WE’RE 3-4!”

    Ed: “Ray, I have to say this. And I love Ray, and I have loved Ray for years, but Ray is Scrooge—he’s the epitome of Scrooge.”

    Ray: “We’re 3-4!”

    Ed: “If somebody won a $10,000,000 lottery, Ray would point out there are a lot of taxes to be paid.”

    Ray’s face dropped into his hands, in stunned disbelief.

    Ed: “Let us enjoy this, Ray. For God’s sake! Let us enjoy this!”
    ...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    G, Voracek, TK, Lindblom, JVR ... I could see you wanting a tad more speed, but we have some of the best wings in the league
    ya but we need a dynamic panarin type to take over from G soon. I wouldn't put jvr or lindblom in that category at all. Hopefully frost and farabee are that, along with ratcliffe

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    firstly:
    what i described was the downside scenario, not an expected one. i was asked what the downside for provorov looks like, and that's what it looks like.

    again, the downside is that we've overrated his offensive ability (based on the 17 goal season two years ago), that his defensive performance lags (for whatever reason), and that as a result, his icetime, which is the one stat everyone talks up (because most of provorov's other stats are kind of ugly) will be a detriment rather than an asset because it will take icetime away from players who are more productive (sanheim, myers, ghost).
    if you play well, you won't get ripped (as much). when you play like ****, you eat it.
    well anyone wanting provorov to replicate 17 goals was going to be disappointed. I think 4-5 of those goals were empty netters (maybe less idk). 40 points with limited pp time is definitely achievable given he will play a lot still. He can also still put up 6-12 goals yearly. I can easily see provorov getting back to 35+ points, 160+ sog

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    I love sanheim as much as the next guy but i think we all value him just as we did provorov. One bad year from sanheim and we will rip into him like we have with provorov now lol. Also, if provorov is never what we envisioned, his contract is still fine. Guy is a workhorse, hasn't missed a game, plays through injuries, defends/plays big minutes. Sanheim could not do all that. He barely will start seeing full duty pk minutes this year...
    I’m not sure provorov is even at 80% of Sanheim’s offensive ceiling ... and ... don’t kill the messenger, but defensive stats are also in sanheim’s favor from last year. Provorov was abused from a usage perspective and quality of competition. All I’m saying is I have concerns; we still need provorov on this team and to be our #1 defender moving forward ... but that is a sizable contract too, and if someone like Sanheim our performs him, we just set our own bar on defensive price tags pretty high ... or Sanheim might want to leave to get top dollar and #1 defense status

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    I’m not sure provorov is even at 80% of Sanheim’s offensive ceiling ... and ... don’t kill the messenger, but defensive stats are also in sanheim’s favor from last year. Provorov was abused from a usage perspective and quality of competition. All I’m saying is I have concerns; we still need provorov on this team and to be our #1 defender moving forward ... but that is a sizable contract too, and if someone like Sanheim our performs him, we just set our own bar on defensive price tags pretty high ... or Sanheim might want to leave to get top dollar and #1 defense status
    Guys -- let's remember that Sanheim is actually almost a year older than Provorov. Provorov is barely able to drink legally. He's still a kid, despite the fact that he's been thrust into some of the most difficult minutes in the league.

    That's not to excuse his poor play, especially at the outset of last season. But let's keep things in perspective here.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace23 View Post
    Guys -- let's remember that Sanheim is actually almost a year older than Provorov. Provorov is barely able to drink legally. He's still a kid, despite the fact that he's been thrust into some of the most difficult minutes in the league.

    That's not to excuse his poor play, especially at the outset of last season. But let's keep things in perspective here.
    also he plays against the top guns more than any other dman. Ghost or sanheim's numbers will be hurt tremendously if the roles were reversed, more so than provorov. To me, its not about the offensive numbers when it comes to him. Sanheim will get his 35ish, ghost his 50+. Provorov can get 30-40 easily without pp time while still being the guy to be the lock for us. I also don't think that sanheim outscoring prorovov will necessarily mean he gets to be paid like provy @castan. Provy literally got paid for what he brings to the team..the minute eater (top 5 last year), number 1 d already at such a young age. If provorov hit 40+ last year we probably would've paid him spurgeon numbers so thankfully he had a bad year lol

  13. #43
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    And Spurgeon is worth every penny Minnesota gave him. Let Provorov mop the floor against lower lines like Sanheim did and have Sanheim play 25 mins a night against top lines while dragging an anchor around. They are both great young players, but let's not lose perspective here. It serves the Flyers best interests for both guys to be a part of the Flyers long term future.

    As for the Konecny contract, I don't see how anyone can view that deal as anything other than a positive. Look no further than the deal Boeser signed. He got a 3 year bridge with a higher aav and Lonely still imo has a higher upside. As Charlie elequantly pointed out, really he doesn't have to do much more than match his production from last season for the life of his contract to be worth every penny. The cap is going to go up a lot after Seattle joins and the new TV deal kicks in. All of these bridge deals signed this summer see going to get mighty expensive on their new deals.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    And Spurgeon is worth every penny Minnesota gave him. Let Provorov mop the floor against lower lines like Sanheim did and have Sanheim play 25 mins a night against top lines while dragging an anchor around. They are both great young players, but let's not lose perspective here. It serves the Flyers best interests for both guys to be a part of the Flyers long term future.

    As for the Konecny contract, I don't see how anyone can view that deal as anything other than a positive. Look no further than the deal Boeser signed. He got a 3 year bridge with a higher aav and Lonely still imo has a higher upside. As Charlie elequantly pointed out, really he doesn't have to do much more than match his production from last season for the life of his contract to be worth every penny. The cap is going to go up a lot after Seattle joins and the new TV deal kicks in. All of these bridge deals signed this summer see going to get mighty expensive on their new deals.
    100% this and tk still has another gear he can go to. He can easily ger more points via the pp if it ever clicks and score more goals if he shoots the damn puck more lol

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    100% this and tk still has another gear he can go to. He can easily ger more points via the pp if it ever clicks and score more goals if he shoots the damn puck more lol
    I mean he's already one of the best young even strength goal scorers in the league. His weaknesses are well defined defensively. Keep him with Couturier or Hayes and he will more than outplay that contract. Eventually give him pp1 time and we're talking another Couturier level contract.

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