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Thread: Preseason

  1. #16
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    Frost injured already.

  2. #17
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    So what do we think of the TK deal? I think it's a "too early to tell" type deal. It could be a steal if he continues to progress.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLMunchie619 View Post
    So what do we think of the TK deal? I think it's a "too early to tell" type deal. It could be a steal if he continues to progress.
    i think both the provorov and tk deals will look great toward the end of the contract and even in two years when guys will get 7-8 and 6-7 as the cap goes up. Solid all around really. Werenski and mcavoy will probably be making more before provorov's contract is up and vrana could see a boost as well.

  4. #19
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    both are signed to less than 12.5 million of the cap though so that is great really.

  5. #20
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    Hayes was a bright spot in the preseason opener.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLMunchie619 View Post
    So what do we think of the TK deal? I think it's a "too early to tell" type deal. It could be a steal if he continues to progress.
    I think it's "alright". Right now, $5.5 is probably a bit rich for a secondary player who hasn't driven a line on his own, but shows an ability, who, with the right linemates, can be apart of a good line. He's young. If he doesn't develop into that kind of a player, then I think the terms will be a bit long/too much. He'd be someone you could, in theory, replace with a handful of our young players for a lot cheaper. If he develops into anything that can even drive a second line...he'll be on a contract that will likely be either right what the doctor ordered, or offer some surplus.

    I'd give it a C+ at the time because there's some obvious hope/projection in there, but with some hindsight could go up to a B+ or so, or sit around a C if he just never develops into a driver and always is product of his line (mostly because, again, with the kids in the pipeline, they could probably find a player who would be comparatively similar for a fraction of the cost). That's not a complaint, only observations. I like the Provorov deal a bit more because I think he's shown signs of being a a true difference maker. Koneceny has shown being more of a good role player.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 09-16-2019 at 11:08 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I think it's "alright". Right now, $5.5 is probably a bit rich for a secondary player who hasn't driven a line on his own, but shows an ability, who, with the right linemates, can be apart of a good line. He's young. If he doesn't develop into that kind of a player, then I think the terms will be a bit long/too much. He'd be someone you could, in theory, replace with a handful of our young players for a lot cheaper. If he develops into anything that can even drive a second line...he'll be on a contract that will likely be either right what the doctor ordered, or offer some surplus.

    I'd give it a C+ at the time because there's some obvious hope/projection in there, but with some hindsight could go up to a B+ or so, or sit around a C if he just never develops into a driver and always is product of his line (mostly because, again, with the kids in the pipeline, they could probably find a player who would be comparatively similar for a fraction of the cost). That's not a complaint, only observations. I like the Provorov deal a bit more because I think he's shown signs of being a a true difference maker. Koneceny has shown being more of a good role player.
    i think a player that drives their own line for sure gets more than 5.5, especially today. If TK produces, I really don't care if he is a product of a line. That's just me. If the guy is giving you 20-25 goals at even strength then he is doing something right and that is pretty good value at 5.5. Very similar to vrana as he is definitely in tk's situation in being a passenger in any line in wsh. When you play with g/couts you most likely are not going to be a driver too. I agree with what you are saying though and I would love to see him and patrick take that next step and dictate more. Would love for them both to end up on a line and dominate (might be wishful thikning)

  8. #23
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    So what do we think of the TK deal? I think it's a "too early to tell" type deal. It could be a steal if he continues to progress.
    1: i would have preferred a bridge deal.
    2: i like this deal more than the one we gave to provorov.
    3: 5.5MM is the going rate for a middle 6 wing. because we know that's konecny's floor...
    4: this contract has very little downside for the flyers.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    1: i would have preferred a bridge deal.
    2: i like this deal more than the one we gave to provorov.
    3: 5.5MM is the going rate for a middle 6 wing. because we know that's konecny's floor...
    4: this contract has very little downside for the flyers.
    why do you hate the provorov one? whats the downside to his?

  10. #25
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    i wouldn't mind this:

    g-couts-voracek/lindblom
    jvr-hayes-tk
    farabee-patrick-lindblom/voracek

    i love tk on the top line but I would also love to see g-couts-voracek dominate again. Now that we can have two other solid lines, we can put them all together

  11. #26
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    why do you hate the provorov one? whats the downside to his?
    the downside for provorov is something like:

    -- his ES icetime decreases because of the improvement in the rest of the D corps
    -- his PP time decreases because ghost and sanheim are better at it
    -- his offensive production lags, due in part to a combination of 1+2
    -- as his offensive production decreases, he settles in as a stay at home defenseman, playing 20-ish MPG on our 2nd D-pair.
    -- (except he hasn't been good at killing penalties, and i'm not sure he's very good at actually playing defense, which means he'd be miscast in that kind of role; he would also, likely, be unhappy with it)
    -- oh and based on the fact that he gets a new partner every year, he may be difficult to play with for reasons that we don't understand yet.

    #eeyore
    i love tk on the top line but I would also love to see g-couts-voracek dominate again. Now that we can have two other solid lines, we can put them all together
    i'd also like to see g/hayes/v; jvr/coutirier/konecny

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    the downside for provorov is something like:

    -- his ES icetime decreases because of the improvement in the rest of the D corps
    -- his PP time decreases because ghost and sanheim are better at it
    -- his offensive production lags, due in part to a combination of 1+2
    -- as his offensive production decreases, he settles in as a stay at home defenseman, playing 20-ish MPG on our 2nd D-pair.
    -- (except he hasn't been good at killing penalties, and i'm not sure he's very good at actually playing defense, which means he'd be miscast in that kind of role; he would also, likely, be unhappy with it)
    -- oh and based on the fact that he gets a new partner every year, he may be difficult to play with for reasons that we don't understand yet.

    #eeyore

    i'd also like to see g/hayes/v; jvr/coutirier/konecny
    i think we are all blowing up one bad season from provorov too much. We are expecting him to be a norris guy every year and if he falls short we just assume he isn't good at defense. I highly doubt he is hard to play with lol. Ghost did fine with him a few years ago. He will still play 24-25 minutes a game with less pp time.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    i think a player that drives their own line for sure gets more than 5.5, especially today. If TK produces, I really don't care if he is a product of a line. That's just me. If the guy is giving you 20-25 goals at even strength then he is doing something right and that is pretty good value at 5.5. Very similar to vrana as he is definitely in tk's situation in being a passenger in any line in wsh. When you play with g/couts you most likely are not going to be a driver too. I agree with what you are saying though and I would love to see him and patrick take that next step and dictate more. Would love for them both to end up on a line and dominate (might be wishful thikning)
    Right. But that's also what the sliding scale is with perspective. If he drives a line...great. Deal is likely a surplus value and a clear win. If he's only a passenger on a good line (capable of playing well with good linemates but also not able to support a line without players like Giroux and Couturier doing the heavy lifting) then I find the deal is a good bit more on the mediocre side. If he's a passenger, then he's likely replaceable for cheaper from within the system at some point. And in the cap era, you have to find cheap wins places. That won't mean he's a debacle of a contract...only one where a similar player could be had for a fraction of the cost.

    I'm also less worried about counting stats. Scoring 20-25 doesn't necessitate a good player all the time. Or at least, a good overall and well rounded one. We saw that with Simmonds; stud on the PP but most of the game was at best "there" and at worst "an anchor". Counting stats can hide things based on opportunity presented and shroud the talent behind it. It's why baseball statistics have gone completely away from them, and I assume, it's where hockey stats are going (things like corsi and fenwick, for example, are rates, not counting). This isn't saying anything about Koneceny, as I think he's a fine player, but generally speaking the counting stats aren't as important to me.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    the downside for provorov is something like:

    -- his ES icetime decreases because of the improvement in the rest of the D corps
    -- his PP time decreases because ghost and sanheim are better at it
    -- his offensive production lags, due in part to a combination of 1+2
    -- as his offensive production decreases, he settles in as a stay at home defenseman, playing 20-ish MPG on our 2nd D-pair.
    -- (except he hasn't been good at killing penalties, and i'm not sure he's very good at actually playing defense, which means he'd be miscast in that kind of role; he would also, likely, be unhappy with it)
    -- oh and based on the fact that he gets a new partner every year, he may be difficult to play with for reasons that we don't understand yet.

    #eeyore

    i'd also like to see g/hayes/v; jvr/coutirier/konecny
    So you're basing your Provorov assessment on ASSUMPTIONS, which are completely different than projections because projections have evidence to back them up. His ES ice time may slightly decrease, but I don't think it will. He will still get PP time I think, but I don't think it will too much. His partner was AMac. I don't even know what you're talking about with his offensive production decreasing but I don't think I've ever seen anyone's production show straight lines of progress...(ie all up or all down). I will say the team as a whole had a down year which is more indicative of a coaching/system flaw rather than an individual issue.

    That aside, I pretty much agree with what you say on TK. I think this year he is overpaid by about $1M but from that point forward it could be a steal. With the inflation of the cap his percentage of the cap is right about where it should be next year if his production stays about the same (which again, I expect it will go up). Also, with us not really needing anyone else to sign this year at this point and the young guys available, the cap hit this year is pretty much whatever.

    I liked Hayes a lot in the opener. I hope he is still rusty and has more to show. I'll be honest, I didn't pay much attention to him in Winn. :/

  15. #30
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    As much as Steagles pisses me off with his Dan Boyle comments or his other weird fringe player love, I do agree with him on the provorov deal and the points he listed (PP usage is huge - Ghost and Sanheim will do that) .... id add another bullet to that list too - Travis Sanheimís emergence ... I think he emerges as a true #1 offensively with him and Myers being ďthe pairingĒ in 2020/2021 ... Sanheimís numbers jump off the page at you, and he played through just as bad of coaching ...

    Iíd love to be wrong, but that is a huge bet on someone who hasnít gotten better 3 straight years. A plateau in year 3 is tough. I own a provorov jersey, Iím saying this objectively. He needs a huge bounce back.

    All I think about is if we got someone like Hughes or Pettersson instead of Patrick ... itís just like what ACE said about Kane vs JVR again and Iím concerned about having any dynamic center on this team ... Couturier is elite, wouldnít call him dynamic offensively just yet ... Hayes is good, certainly not dynamic ... Patty is injured, again, and has shown like 4 games where I think ... ďwe saw a flash of an elite centerĒ ... which is terrifying.

    TK is tradable, so whatever, and he is our only speed wing who can shoot. We need him.

    I have doubts we will be able to find another diamond in the rough at C like G with this front office.

    Morgan Frost is a full year away, minimum, and I donít see him playing center unless he eats nothing but steak for 3 years. He needs 2 full AHL years after seeing what I saw.

    Farabee is going to make the squad out of camp, and he isnít ready just yet, so being rushed.

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