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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Here's some fun stats for you guys.

    Josh Allen led the Bills on a 98 yard touchdown drive yesterday, which was the longest touchdown drive since 2009.

    The Bills have 6 touchdown drives of 70 or more yards this season, which ranks 3rd behind Dallas (8) and Baltimore (7).
    It is a fun stat. But if we're using it to determine how good this team may actually be or not be, then it needs to be considered that we played two of the worst defenses in the league and did ALL of our damage in three Qs while playing like utter crap in the other 5 Qs.

    In short, if you compare those 5 quarters of play to teh worst five Qs of play by Dallas and Baltimore you'd see a night and day delta.

    Just sayin'.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Ok. Compare to another franchise who has done a full tear down and rebuild in the last 3 seasons. I’ll wait.
    I' not the one that used the Jets as a standard, the onus is on you to defend your position my friend.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Crazy that people are complaining. At least wait for something bad to happen. By all accounts, the Bills look like they're on the right path. The jury is still out on Allen, but he's shown enough flashes for now. Not sure what more you guys want at this moment that isn't unrealistic.
    I'm not sure that anyone's complaining, let's not embellish here. It's just discussion.

    To suggest that they're on the right path is way premature in the same manner that you say people are complaining, which is typically really more people not agreeing with statements such as that we're on the right path.

    let's put this in perspective. We've beaten two teams with two of the worst defenses in the league, and when we consider that we only did it with the Jets' only premier and their two best defensive players out with injury in the 4th Q, the reality is that neither D is much better than the Fins' D.

    Either way, we currently have, according to PFT's recent power-rankings, 9 games against teams ranked worse than us, two of which were the 29th and 31st ranked Jets and Giants.

    Allen has had 5 absolutely horrific, as in worse than his worst of last season, passing Quarters of football, and three quarters of passing that are comparable to historical record shattering performance. Again, against two horrific Ds.

    Last season we played 7 games against 6 playoff teams and allowed 225 points while scoring only 68. We went 0-7 in those games. So who cares what we did againt the other garbage teams. Simply put we got killed by playoff teams.

    This season's offense was notably less impressive against the Jets than it was in our 27-23 loss last season, in general. The fact that it took an implosion by the Jets to create the oppportunity for us to have a good 4th Q against a defense in blatant disarray only offers so much hope.

    Neither team has a WR that is among the top-50 in the league in receiving yards.

    Cincy appears to be another easy game with all of their injuries, Glenn, Mixon, Green, and others.

    I'm far more concerneed with how we'll play against Baltimore, NE, Philly, Dallas, and Cleveland, all teams ranked above us in the power-rankings.

    If we win all the other games and give up 225 points to them again while ourselves scoring fewer than 10 ppg i don't know how anyone could not be critical. Wouldn't you be? Frankly, if that happens, I dont' see how McD and Beane last, particularly since winning out all the other 10 games is unlikely.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Allen is so far ahead of where he was last year.

    Some fans just seem to get their rocks off on criticizing the Bills. As if they want things to go wrong so they can say, "see, I knew this would happen."

    The reality is, we're 2-0 and two playoff teams (PIT and IND) from last year have lost their QBs. Miami should be two automatic wins. The Jets season may already be over at 0-2 with their next four against New England (twice), Dallas, and Philadelphia. Look around the AFC. It's a hot mess. The playoffs are looking like a very real possibility, especially with a 3-0 start with a win at home next Sunday.

    I don't care who is on the field. I don't care how player X is utilized. All I care about is that we keep winning.

    Ripper, the status of other teams really has little to do with how much we've progressed.

    I'll say it now here publicly, I was on record as having said that the only QB in 2018's Draft that I felt was worthy of a 1st-rounder was Mayfield. I said that I would have let the QBs run their course and take Rudolph starting with one of our original picks in the 2nd round or the first pick of the 3rd although I wouldn't have waited that long.

    We'll see how Rudolph plays, but I think he's going to be better than Allen for however good Allen ends up being.

    But you said that "Allen is so far ahead of where he was last year."

    I'm curious why you say that.

    Against the jets he stunk thru 3 quarters of football and in the second half of the Giants he was horrible as well in the passing dept.

    In those 5 quarters he went 20 for 37 for 195 Yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs, was sacked twice, and had a rating of 46.6, which to put into perspective was worse than all but three of his entire games played.

    Sure, he had three fantastic quarters, but we would be remiss to assume that Moseley and McClendon leaving the Jets game due to injury wasn't the primary reason there. I mean if Mosely stays in why should anything change, particularly to the tune of what Allen did. In the same manner it would be remiss for purposes of forecasting to deny that the Giant D is in the running for the worst D in the NFL, yes, including Miami's.

    There's no emotion in any of that, it's simple facts. There are positives, but in the same way that some heavyweight contender beats up a bunch of nobodies, these games against these hapless teams are not indicators as to whether or not we've improved.

    It's like taking the Miami game last season, the Jets game with Barkley, and Vikings game and determing that since we were 3-0 in those games and outscored our opponents even worse than we've done here, 110-33, and making a determination based on that.

    There's LOTS of season left and I'm not sure how abysmally horrific people realize that the Jets and Giants actually are. They're right down there with Miami. PFT's recent power rankings have them at 29th and 31st and the Fins at 32nd. And the Bengals this coming Sunday are no better at 26th, all banged up, their starting RB injured, Glenn too, Green, a prolific TE out. They're not good in their current state.

    Either way, if you used those three games last season you'd come up with one conclusion. If you considered that in the other 13 games we were outscored 159-341 and went 3-10 you'd come up with entirely another.

    I'm far more concerned with the results when we play Cleveland, Baltimore, Philly, and Dallas, which by all rights if "The Process" is working are very winnable games. It's a foregone conclusion that the Pats are going to kill us as they have for two decades. File that under "until further notice."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings & Bleu View Post
    I' not the one that used the Jets as a standard, the onus is on you to defend your position my friend.
    There’s nothing to defend. During our Miami season McDermott took us to the playoffs.

    I have my comparison on where we currently stand compared to a team on the same timeline and with better assets to work with. I think things are going great.

    And Outside of the first half from week 1, Allen has done exactly what has been asked of him.
    What in mcdermott’s (So far very successful) coaching career has led you to expect him to throw the ball more than 10 times in the 2nd half with a 2 score lead? Allen’s goal in that scenario is to not turn the ball over - he did that.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings & Bleu View Post
    I'm not sure that anyone's complaining, let's not embellish here. It's just discussion.

    To suggest that they're on the right path is way premature in the same manner that you say people are complaining, which is typically really more people not agreeing with statements such as that we're on the right path.

    let's put this in perspective. We've beaten two teams with two of the worst defenses in the league, and when we consider that we only did it with the Jets' only premier and their two best defensive players out with injury in the 4th Q, the reality is that neither D is much better than the Fins' D.

    Either way, we currently have, according to PFT's recent power-rankings, 9 games against teams ranked worse than us, two of which were the 29th and 31st ranked Jets and Giants.

    Allen has had 5 absolutely horrific, as in worse than his worst of last season, passing Quarters of football, and three quarters of passing that are comparable to historical record shattering performance. Again, against two horrific Ds.

    Last season we played 7 games against 6 playoff teams and allowed 225 points while scoring only 68. We went 0-7 in those games. So who cares what we did againt the other garbage teams. Simply put we got killed by playoff teams.

    This season's offense was notably less impressive against the Jets than it was in our 27-23 loss last season, in general. The fact that it took an implosion by the Jets to create the oppportunity for us to have a good 4th Q against a defense in blatant disarray only offers so much hope.

    Neither team has a WR that is among the top-50 in the league in receiving yards.

    Cincy appears to be another easy game with all of their injuries, Glenn, Mixon, Green, and others.

    I'm far more concerneed with how we'll play against Baltimore, NE, Philly, Dallas, and Cleveland, all teams ranked above us in the power-rankings.

    If we win all the other games and give up 225 points to them again while ourselves scoring fewer than 10 ppg i don't know how anyone could not be critical. Wouldn't you be? Frankly, if that happens, I dont' see how McD and Beane last, particularly since winning out all the other 10 games is unlikely.





    Ripper, the status of other teams really has little to do with how much we've progressed.

    I'll say it now here publicly, I was on record as having said that the only QB in 2018's Draft that I felt was worthy of a 1st-rounder was Mayfield. I said that I would have let the QBs run their course and take Rudolph starting with one of our original picks in the 2nd round or the first pick of the 3rd although I wouldn't have waited that long.

    We'll see how Rudolph plays, but I think he's going to be better than Allen for however good Allen ends up being.

    But you said that "Allen is so far ahead of where he was last year."

    I'm curious why you say that.

    Against the jets he stunk thru 3 quarters of football and in the second half of the Giants he was horrible as well in the passing dept.

    In those 5 quarters he went 20 for 37 for 195 Yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs, was sacked twice, and had a rating of 46.6, which to put into perspective was worse than all but three of his entire games played.

    Sure, he had three fantastic quarters, but we would be remiss to assume that Moseley and McClendon leaving the Jets game due to injury wasn't the primary reason there. I mean if Mosely stays in why should anything change, particularly to the tune of what Allen did. In the same manner it would be remiss for purposes of forecasting to deny that the Giant D is in the running for the worst D in the NFL, yes, including Miami's.

    There's no emotion in any of that, it's simple facts. There are positives, but in the same way that some heavyweight contender beats up a bunch of nobodies, these games against these hapless teams are not indicators as to whether or not we've improved.

    It's like taking the Miami game last season, the Jets game with Barkley, and Vikings game and determing that since we were 3-0 in those games and outscored our opponents even worse than we've done here, 110-33, and making a determination based on that.

    There's LOTS of season left and I'm not sure how abysmally horrific people realize that the Jets and Giants actually are. They're right down there with Miami. PFT's recent power rankings have them at 29th and 31st and the Fins at 32nd. And the Bengals this coming Sunday are no better at 26th, all banged up, their starting RB injured, Glenn too, Green, a prolific TE out. They're not good in their current state.

    Either way, if you used those three games last season you'd come up with one conclusion. If you considered that in the other 13 games we were outscored 159-341 and went 3-10 you'd come up with entirely another.

    I'm far more concerned with the results when we play Cleveland, Baltimore, Philly, and Dallas, which by all rights if "The Process" is working are very winnable games. It's a foregone conclusion that the Pats are going to kill us as they have for two decades. File that under "until further notice."
    I don't think anyone has lost perspective of the teams the Bills have played. Address the other games when we get there. Until then, what sense does it make? 2-0 is 2-0. No one cares that Lamar Jackson lit up two bad teams. No one cares that all of the other undefeated teams in the AFC have played terrible teams. None of it matters. All that matters is that it happened. Teams have made it to the playoffs without winning a single game against a team with a winning record.

    The schedule is the schedule and I can tell you first hand that both the Jets and Giants (fans, media and organization) did not view those games the way you did and the Jets are a team that was projected to be better than the Bills before the season started. I agree with you about your perception of the Giants game, but the Jets stuff is completely in hindsight and will only play out this way because of the loss of Darnold.

    The Bills are beating the teams they are supposed to beat and that's what matters right now. We couldn't say that in past years. We'll deal with the Ravens, Cowboys, etc. when we get there. In fact, you using the Ravens as an example is a little contradictory considering that their season outlook just changed with wins over two bad teams and probably the two worst defenses in the league (even worse than the Giants). Most did not have them in the playoffs prior to the start of the season and had them projected around the Bills and the Jets. It was almost a unanimous view that they would finish third in their division behind Pittsburgh and Cleveland.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings & Bleu View Post
    It is a fun stat. But if we're using it to determine how good this team may actually be or not be, then it needs to be considered that we played two of the worst defenses in the league and did ALL of our damage in three Qs while playing like utter crap in the other 5 Qs.

    In short, if you compare those 5 quarters of play to teh worst five Qs of play by Dallas and Baltimore you'd see a night and day delta.

    Just sayin'.
    It's just a few stats, bruh. They're fun. Nothing more. Not everything here needs to be debated with a fine toothed comb.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings & Bleu View Post
    Ripper, the status of other teams really has little to do with how much we've progressed.
    6 teams make the playoffs. Pittsburgh and Indianapolis were both considered division contenders with good chances to make the playoffs. The Jets were considered by many, wrong as they may be, to be ahead of the Bills. The status of those teams absolutely does matter because it has opened up the Wild Card race for a few teams that were previously considered bubble contenders for those spots. The Bills were in that group of bubble teams and their odds (if you can call it that) of making the playoffs increases with Roethlisberger's injury and it did with Luck's retirement as well.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    There’s nothing to defend. During our Miami season McDermott took us to the playoffs.

    I have my comparison on where we currently stand compared to a team on the same timeline and with better assets to work with. I think things are going great.

    And Outside of the first half from week 1, Allen has done exactly what has been asked of him.
    What in mcdermott’s (So far very successful) coaching career has led you to expect him to throw the ball more than 10 times in the 2nd half with a 2 score lead? Allen’s goal in that scenario is to not turn the ball over - he did that.
    OK

    I was referring to going 4-for-10 on 4.3 YPA with the game still needing to be put away. I can't imagine that the coaching staff said "Josh, just go out there in the 2nd half and don't really worry about your passing game, if you can complete even half of your passes for 4 YPA that's all we need." But if you think so.

    It's funny, I was just over at my Giants' friends house and said to him, "what'd ya think, Allen had a pretty good game, no?" He says everyone has a good game against the Giants' D. He's right.

    Prescott had the best game of his four-year career in week 1 against the Giants. Highest rating (158.3), Most TDs (4), fewest sacks (0), Highest YPA and AYPA (12.66, 15.16), and 6th highest compl. % (78.1).

    I wouldn't say that he's done exactly what's been asked of him unless what they asked of him was sheer and utter futility for the first three quarters of that Jets game. Sounds like you're reaching here.

    Either way, if you think so, I'd simply caution against using two games against two of the worst defenses that we're going to see this season as any sort of standard for measuring Allen's development. IMO it's not wise and you're setting yourself up for disappointment, that's all. Obviously I'm not going to get you to see anything other than success here.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I don't think anyone has lost perspective of the teams the Bills have played. Address the other games when we get there. Until then, what sense does it make? 2-0 is 2-0. No one cares that Lamar Jackson lit up two bad teams. No one cares that all of the other undefeated teams in the AFC have played terrible teams. None of it matters. All that matters is that it happened. Teams have made it to the playoffs without winning a single game against a team with a winning record.

    The schedule is the schedule and I can tell you first hand that both the Jets and Giants (fans, media and organization) did not view those games the way you did and the Jets are a team that was projected to be better than the Bills before the season started. I agree with you about your perception of the Giants game, but the Jets stuff is completely in hindsight and will only play out this way because of the loss of Darnold.

    The Bills are beating the teams they are supposed to beat and that's what matters right now. We couldn't say that in past years. We'll deal with the Ravens, Cowboys, etc. when we get there. In fact, you using the Ravens as an example is a little contradictory considering that their season outlook just changed with wins over two bad teams and probably the two worst defenses in the league (even worse than the Giants). Most did not have them in the playoffs prior to the start of the season and had them projected around the Bills and the Jets. It was almost a unanimous view that they would finish third in their division behind Pittsburgh and Cleveland.
    Nobody ever sees things the way that I do.

    If McD & Beane's vision is going to come to fruition than the teams that "we're supposed to beat" then that's going to have to include playoff teams at some point. Otherwise they're not cutting it.

    Do you agree with that?

    Last season against those teams we allowed 225 points, scored 68, for an average score of 32-10, and went 0-7.

    Against the teams taht "we were supposed to beat," I'll include the rest of the non-playoff-team schedule, we went 6-3, scored 201 points, allowed 149, for an average score of 22-9.

    I mean how does one even begin to explain that dichotomy. For the life of me what I don't see is how a plan is coming together.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    It's just a few stats, bruh. They're fun. Nothing more. Not everything here needs to be debated with a fine toothed comb.
    True

    Having said that, I'm one to point out the things that no one else wants to see, good or bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    6 teams make the playoffs. Pittsburgh and Indianapolis were both considered division contenders with good chances to make the playoffs. The Jets were considered by many, wrong as they may be, to be ahead of the Bills. The status of those teams absolutely does matter because it has opened up the Wild Card race for a few teams that were previously considered bubble contenders for those spots. The Bills were in that group of bubble teams and their odds (if you can call it that) of making the playoffs increases with Roethlisberger's injury and it did with Luck's retirement as well.
    Here's the thing, since when did the goal become to "simply make the playoffs?"

    My goal is to win a championship, which means more than merely "making the playoffs," which we did two seasons ago to snap a long record-setting streak, fine and dandy, but beyond that it was meaningless as we needed the unlikely play of another team to even achieve that.

    Perhaps the perspective is different for me because I was at all of the '90s home playoff games with the tailgating parties that started at 7 am and didn't end 'til 8 or 9 pm. We went to the games not "hoping" to win but expecting to win, and win we did, against the best.

    So when I hear the masses, medias, etc. talking about "making the playoffs" w/o discussing what happens once you get there, I'm unsettled since the goal doesn't end there. I suppose for some fans with much lower bars for success it might, I can't speak for them, but it doesn't for me.

    As such, I'm constantly assessing whether or not we're headed in that direction, and if not I'm highly critical as imo a good fan wanting the same thing should be.

    I yearn for the day that we actually hire a proven good coach with the best credentials, not merely because we can't find one that wants to come to Buffalo or whatever. So far I'm far from seeing that here.
    Last edited by Wings & Bleu; 09-17-2019 at 07:45 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings & Bleu View Post
    True

    Having said that, I'm one to point out the things that no one else wants to see, good or bad.




    Here's the thing, since when did the goal become to "simply make the playoffs?"

    My goal is to win a championship, which means more than merely "making the playoffs," which we did two seasons ago to snap a long record-setting streak, fine and dandy, but beyond that it was meaningless as we needed the unlikely play of another team to even achieve that.

    Perhaps the perspective is different for me because I was at all of the '90s home playoff games with the tailgating parties that started at 7 am and didn't end 'til 8 or 9 pm. We went to the games not "hoping" to win but expecting to win, and win we did, against the best.

    So when I hear the masses, medias, etc. talking about "making the playoffs" w/o discussing what happens once you get there, I'm unsettled since the goal doesn't end there. I suppose for some fans with much lower bars for success it might, I can't speak for them, but it doesn't for me.

    As such, I'm constantly assessing whether or not we're headed in that direction, and if not I'm highly critical as imo a good fan wanting the same thing should be.

    I yearn for the day that we actually hire a proven good coach with the best credentials, not merely because we can't find one that wants to come to Buffalo or whatever. So far I'm far from seeing that here.
    We've made the playoffs once in what.... 18 years? 19 years? I remember the 90s, too. I want to see Championships too. But nothing changes if nothing changes. Buffalo isn't a desirable place to be right now. That doesn't change over night and making the playoffs consistently is certainly a part of that happening.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    We've made the playoffs once in what.... 18 years? 19 years? I remember the 90s, too. I want to see Championships too. But nothing changes if nothing changes. Buffalo isn't a desirable place to be right now. That doesn't change over night and making the playoffs consistently is certainly a part of that happening.
    OK, but my point is nothing also changes when all you do is hire OJT coaches and GMs that have zero experience, and largely in the role because they first hired a coach from his former team. As one example.

    Another is bringing back a well past-prime former coach to be a GM that has never been in that role and is ancient by NFL age standards, simply for nostalgical reasons.

    Good decision making begins at the ownerhsip level, does it not? Yes or no?

    All I'm saying is that if we don't make significant strides this season essentially we're one of those teams that is perpetually mediocre but never capable of winning anything. Good, but never good enough. Again, my bar is higher.

    We've seen plenty to know what Beane's and McD's methodologies are. Sign players with injury histories hoping to find a bargain and hoping that the injury risks don't play out, and a heavy reliance upon small-school draft prospects.

    That's really all we need to know about that approach at this point, but if few of those decisions work out then it makes a statement about that approach. I mean who can argue that.

  13. #73
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    Seems like a lot of Bills fans are simply content to be able to watch a bunch of mediocre football at face value.

    I'm not.

    Here's the thing, if that's the case, then why are those same fans going ballistic at the end of the season ready to burn OBD to the ground, fire everyone, etc.

    If that's all one wants, hey, quietly accept it. If nto, well, here we are, discussing.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings & Bleu View Post
    Nobody ever sees things the way that I do.

    If McD & Beane's vision is going to come to fruition than the teams that "we're supposed to beat" then that's going to have to include playoff teams at some point. Otherwise they're not cutting it.

    Do you agree with that?

    Last season against those teams we allowed 225 points, scored 68, for an average score of 32-10, and went 0-7.

    Against the teams taht "we were supposed to beat," I'll include the rest of the non-playoff-team schedule, we went 6-3, scored 201 points, allowed 149, for an average score of 22-9.

    I mean how does one even begin to explain that dichotomy. For the life of me what I don't see is how a plan is coming together.
    I agree, but last year is last year and this is a different team. You’re posting about it as if this current version of the team has gotten blown out by playoff teams. They haven’t and my point is to just wait and see what happens when they play those teams. I don’t get it. I’m not touting them as this great team. I’m not guaranteeing victory over those teams. I’m simply saying enjoy these wins now and we’ll cross those other bridges when it comes. Not very hard to understand what I’m getting at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I agree, but last year is last year and this is a different team. You’re posting about it as if this current version of the team has gotten blown out by playoff teams. They haven’t and my point is to just wait and see what happens when they play those teams. I don’t get it. I’m not touting them as this great team. I’m not guaranteeing victory over those teams. I’m simply saying enjoy these wins now and we’ll cross those other bridges when it comes. Not very hard to understand what I’m getting at.

    I understand what you're getting at, we're just coming at it from two different perspectives. But likewise, it shouldln't be that difficult to see where I'm coming from either. It's not that one perspective is right while the other is wrong. I'm simply more critical and I'm not buying anything until I see improvements where we struggled last season, not where we didn't struggle, namely against opponents like the Jets and Giants this season. I've posted the differences in scoring and performance. They're monumental, it's a chasm between the two as you've seen, like two completely different teams.

    For example, I'm not seeing a big difference in the play of the OL, particularly considering the defensive competition.

    I'm also not seeing much improvement on D, the stats support that, and again, statistically even.

    Until we do not get blown out by playoff teams, playing the Jets worse than we did last season offensively, and by a country mile, and doing the same to the Giants that we did to a comparable team in Miami in week 17 also shouldn't prove anything either.

    I mean think about it, if we go back to last season, pluck out wins over Miami in week 17 and a very similar win as our win over the Lions last season, and start projecting how good, or even improved that team was last season, it would be ridiculous.

    As to enjoying wins over such teams, while you're obviously different, for me, and for reasons stated, it simply doesn't do much for me if we get slaughtered by the Pats twice as well as to the better 6 teams on our schedule.

    Right now the evidence suggests that we can do what we did last season, nothing more.

    Until that time...
    Last edited by Wings & Bleu; 09-18-2019 at 12:32 PM.

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