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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I think it's bad to support bad laws/policies for any reason. What we get is the bad policies of one administration surviving because the new administration is busy adding their own new bad policies. We never seem to learn.
    Not in terms of the environment. At least you get cleaner protected lands, air and water. We shouldn’t be so loose on that front.

    Profits are not more important than the planet.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Not in terms of the environment. At least you get cleaner protected lands, air and water. We shouldn’t be so loose on that front.

    Profits are not more important than the planet.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Any chance you guys could bring up China's environmental program prior to discussing ours. Because what we are doing makes them look like they're living back in 1980's. Emptying government run shiploads of trash into a river one after the other. Dumping it and going back to grab their next load.

    Did I mention the sweat shops that DB labeled as making money at a far more fairer rate? Yeah...the climate control folks. Disgusting.
    GJO- You will never be forgotten. "MORE THAN MINFINITY"!

  3. #63
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    DB is a lost sole. His daily life and his daily political agenda of the day 100% derives from Twitter. From Twitter and conspiracy theories.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Not in terms of the environment. At least you get cleaner protected lands, air and water. We shouldn’t be so loose on that front.

    Profits are not more important than the planet.
    I didn't say anything about profit. There are bad rules and bad laws that are ostensibly to protect the environment that are doing damage the way they are written and the way they are used.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    Any chance you guys could bring up China's environmental program prior to discussing ours. Because what we are doing makes them look like they're living back in 1980's. Emptying government run shiploads of trash into a river one after the other. Dumping it and going back to grab their next load.

    Did I mention the sweat shops that DB labeled as making money at a far more fairer rate? Yeah...the climate control folks. Disgusting.
    So we shouldn’t focus on ourselves because they are worse? Yeah China sucks and they are our biggest threat environmentally and economically. We still gotta fix our own ****.


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  6. #66
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    Orange County posts don’t mean nothing
    All these lost souls think Gavin Newsome really cares
    Keep voting yah CA sleepers
    But I’ll keep postin from under the sun and YOU can’t find ****.....cuz.....

    Simps

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by CityofTreez View Post
    Orange County posts don’t mean nothing
    All these lost souls think Gavin Newsome really cares
    Keep voting yah CA sleepers
    But I’ll keep postin from under the sun and YOU can’t find ****.....cuz.....

    Simps
    I feel like we’re about to have a rap battle but none of us can rap.


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    Any chance you guys could bring up China's environmental program prior to discussing ours. Because what we are doing makes them look like they're living back in 1980's. Emptying government run shiploads of trash into a river one after the other. Dumping it and going back to grab their next load.
    This is akin to what Sluggo has mentioned numerous times as well.

    I get it, and your point is not without merit, insofar as all countries at this juncture need to address environmental concerns. And no doubt that China has very serious environmental issues that they need to face.

    But as an argument directly related to US environmental policy, this is a non-starter, especially given the record complied by the current administration.

    It’s like getting pulled over for doing 80 in a 60 mph zone. You can complain to the officer that there were lots of cars passing you at the time, and so what?

    Where the observation would would legitimately add to the substantive discourse would be if the US elected to lead the rest of the world by reversing our current backsliding and implementing a much more aggressively pro-environment policy. We could then be in a stronger position to pressure the international community (assuming we choose to do so — which I would advocate), even to the point of exercising our political and economic power if necessary.
    Last edited by Crovash; 09-08-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    This is akin to what Sluggo has mentioned numerous times as well.

    I get it, and your point is not without merit, insofar as all countries at this juncture need to address environmental concerns. And no doubt that China has very serious environmental issues that they need to face.

    But as an argument directly related to US environmental policy, this is a non-starter, especially given the record complied by the current administration.

    It’s like getting pulled over for doing 80 in a 60 mph zone. You can complain to the officer that there were lots of cars passing you at the time, and so what?

    Where the observation would would legitimately add to the substantive discourse would be if the US elected to lead the rest of the world by reversing our current backsliding and implementing a much more aggressively pro-environment policy. We could then be in a stronger position to pressure the international community (assuming we choose to do so — which I would advocate), even to the point of exercising our political and economic power if necessary.
    As ham fisted as Trump has been his rep for crazy could actually get China/India/Pakistan to make interested in talking about making actual changes in how they pollute, but it's not likely. They know that they need to focus on making money now while they can ... they are not fat enough yet to care too much about the environment. China is starting to turn on their own as they are realizing that they are starting to screw themselves over with their pollution, but they have a long way to go to get to where the western world is now.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    This is akin to what Sluggo has mentioned numerous times as well.

    I get it, and your point is not without merit, insofar as all countries at this juncture need to address environmental concerns. And no doubt that China has very serious environmental issues that they need to face.

    But as an argument directly related to US environmental policy, this is a non-starter, especially given the record complied by the current administration.

    It’s like getting pulled over for doing 80 in a 60 mph zone. You can complain to the officer that there were lots of cars passing you at the time, and so what?

    Where the observation would would legitimately add to the substantive discourse would be if the US elected to lead the rest of the world by reversing our current backsliding and implementing a much more aggressively pro-environment policy. We could then be in a stronger position to pressure the international community (assuming we choose to do so — which I would advocate), even to the point of exercising our political and economic power if necessary.
    There are several points to be made here.

    One point that I have said repeatedly is that regardless of what thew US does for the environment, climate control…whatever you want to call it…it is almost totally irrelevant so long as large parts of the rest of the world do little to nothing. That is pretty much what is happening now and why there is no point in being involved in the Paris talks. Every time the US signs on with anything involving multiple countries, we foot a bigger part of the bill than we should. Trump, rightly so, does not like this.

    Secondly, given the first para, this does not mean that the US should abandon any plans to keep the environment clean…and we haven't. For a country our size and with the population we have, the US is amazingly clean and environmental friendly. Far moreso than any other nation that approaches us in siz, economics, population etc. And we should always try to keep improving.

    Thirdly… having said all that…our people have to live and our country has to grow and improve to maintain the lifestyle we are accustomed to. We need "stuff" we need jobs, we need to remain strong on the national stage. We cannot just sit on our butts and not advance. Ther is nothing wrong with off shore drilling, fracking, pipelines etc. If this makes us energy independent (and it does) then kep it up. It will helo to maintain our lifestyle.

    The area in Alaska that Trump wants to utilize is a huge tract of land that no one lives on and very few people will ever even see. I took a cruise past there and there is nothing there but trees…no people, np lights, np roads etc. Nothing. I doubt very much if they will comer in there and clear cut tens of thousands of acres without managing them for reforestation…there is no financial benefit to doing that. I also doubt if they are going to strip mine. The area they want to drill in in ANWAR was described as being equivalent to a postage stamp on your living room carpet and in a place no one will ever go to. What's the big deal here?

    Finally…I am all in favor of population control. It is very possible that the current population of the US (about 340 million) is where we need to be so that we can all live comfortably. Does anyone here want to live like the do in Central and South America, of Africa or India or China? I don't think so.Too many people creates what all these illegals are trying to run away from. Who needs it here.

    Way too many people out there are OK with abortion but freak out if you want to cut down some trees.

    I think we all need to be a little more realistic.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    One point that I have said repeatedly is that regardless of what thew US does for the environment, climate control…whatever you want to call it…it is almost totally irrelevant so long as large parts of the rest of the world do little to nothing. That is pretty much what is happening now and why there is no point in being involved in the Paris talks. Every time the US signs on with anything involving multiple countries, we foot a bigger part of the bill than we should. Trump, rightly so, does not like this.
    Disagree.

    Look, we are the ones who basically established ourselves as the leaders of the world, dominating as we have for many years the international economic, military, and political landscape.

    In effect, we have exploited the world to our benefit — for better and for worse.

    But imperialism has its price, and part of that price is that we have to shoulder a large portion of the responsibility for what has happened (and, if we care, what will happen).

    Because of this, some out there love us for it. Swell. Some definitely hate us for it. Tough nuts for us.

    But it’s not like we can now just up and take our ball and go home as if to say we got ours and f uc k the rest of you (well, I suppose we can — maybe that’s what we are in the process of doing). We can’t have our cake and eat it too, even if we are exceptional Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Secondly, given the first para, this does not mean that the US should abandon any plans to keep the environment clean…and we haven't. For a country our size and with the population we have, the US is amazingly clean and environmental friendly. Far moreso than any other nation that approaches us in siz, economics, population etc. And we should always try to keep improving.
    No argument here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Thirdly… having said all that…our people have to live and our country has to grow and improve to maintain the lifestyle we are accustomed to. We need "stuff" we need jobs, we need to remain strong on the national stage. We cannot just sit on our butts and not advance. Ther is nothing wrong with off shore drilling, fracking, pipelines etc. If this makes us energy independent (and it does) then kep it up. It will helo to maintain our lifestyle.
    First, want and need are very different beasts. Americans want plenty more than they need (myself included).

    What do you mean, by the way, to “remain strong on the national stage?”

    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    The area in Alaska that Trump wants to utilize is a huge tract of land that no one lives on and very few people will ever even see. I took a cruise past there and there is nothing there but trees…no people, np lights, np roads etc. Nothing.
    Nothing? That may just be the stupidest thing you may have ever said.
    Last edited by Crovash; 09-08-2019 at 01:16 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Look, this sounds and all, but we’re the ones who basically established ourselves as the leader of the world, dominating for many years the international economic and political landscape.

    We have exploited the world to our benefit.

    But imperialism has its price, and part of that price is that we have to shoulder a large portion of the responsibility for what has happened. Some love us for it. Swell. Some hate us for it. Tough nuts.

    But it’s not like we can now just up and take our ball and go home as if to say we got ours and f uc k the rest of you (well, I suppose we can — maybe that’s what we are in the process of doing).

    we have to shoulder a greater responsibility for what will happen.



    No argument here.



    First, want and need are very different beasts. Americans want plenty more than they need (myself included).

    What do you mean, by the way, to “remain strong on the national stage?”



    Nothing? That may just be the stupidest thing you may have ever said.
    Second Para…"exploited" not really. Interacted because we can … no question there. But has it been harmful…no, not really.

    Third Para…"Imperialism" Pretty strong word for how the US conducts it's business in modern times. Look at all the things we could have done but didn't. What would Europe look like without the US. What would Russia have done in Europe without the US? What would the far east look like without the US? Is the US an aggressive businessman…no doubt. But "Imperialism" ……come on now.

    Third Para…we have not take our ball and gone home. We have done our part. It's time to expect others to do their part.

    Fourth Para…we have to shoulder a greater responsibility for what will happen. Really? Why? We've done far more than our share in many areas. How about looking at what's going on at home.

    Fifth para… the reason why Americans want more than they need is because we can. It's nice to have noce things. Every country on the planet would live like we do if they could. Everyone has wants. So long as it is affordable and harms no one else, what's the problem. It we cut our consumption of everything in half, it would have no effect on how the rest of the world lives. Most countries are so poorly run that what the US does.does not due has little effect on them.

    Sixth para…It is imperative for the world to function peacefully and freely that the US remain strong. That's just the way it is.

    Last para…That may just be the stupidest thing you may have ever said. No, That's just another valid point you don't get.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    We are so far in the wrong direction that I am all good with overprotection. Same as the nation’s politics right now. I don’t think far left is best for the country as a whole (though it’s my personal preference) but we’ve gone so far right that I’d prefer Bernie as president to over correct in the opposite direction and get back to center (because he can’t really pull off all his plans with our current Congress. But he can at least swing the pendulum back).


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    Just because we've gone to far in one location, doesn't mean over protecting is what's healthy for another biome, every biome is different and requires different care.
    And having a biome become unhealthy in one way doesn't make up for us over taxing another biome elsewhere.

  14. #74
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    Oh those biomes!!!!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Second Para…"exploited" not really. Interacted because we can … no question there. But has it been harmful…no, not really.

    Third Para…"Imperialism" Pretty strong word for how the US conducts it's business in modern times. Look at all the things we could have done but didn't. What would Europe look like without the US. What would Russia have done in Europe without the US? What would the far east look like without the US? Is the US an aggressive businessman…no doubt. But "Imperialism" ……come on now.

    Third Para…we have not take our ball and gone home. We have done our part. It's time to expect others to do their part.

    Fourth Para…we have to shoulder a greater responsibility for what will happen. Really? Why? We've done far more than our share in many areas. How about looking at what's going on at home.

    Fifth para… the reason why Americans want more than they need is because we can. It's nice to have noce things. Every country on the planet would live like we do if they could. Everyone has wants. So long as it is affordable and harms no one else, what's the problem. It we cut our consumption of everything in half, it would have no effect on how the rest of the world lives. Most countries are so poorly run that what the US does.does not due has little effect on them.

    Sixth para…It is imperative for the world to function peacefully and freely that the US remain strong. That's just the way it is.
    No point in pursuing this interchange because we have completely different starting points.

    I see imperialism — political and economic hegemony buttressed by military might.
    You see aggressive business practice.

    I see it as harmful exploitation — utilizing the limited resources (including people) of other parts of world for our internal benefit.
    You see it as a little harmless consumption — just because we can.

    I see the myriad wonders of the natural world in the Alaska wilderness.
    You see, and I quote, nothing.

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