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  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yeah, LBJ is a great player I never said he wasn't. Coming off the bench matters because kobe didn't have a significant role and was playing fewer minutes...and no, LBJ would not have started on those laker teams early on, especially because rookies, especially coming out of hs weren't given a chance to play significant roles in contending teams in those days, regardless of how good they were. Had LBJ played with Shaq and with Phil, he would have likely scored in the mid to high teens and averaged about 5-6 assists because they wouldn't allow him to dominate the ball and would make him play in the triangle.

    Also, "true shooting percentage" doesn't mean that the player was more efficient. Efficiency involves more than simply shooting...and even if you ignore that massive flaw with the statistic (which I doubt you have any qualification to understand or even use in a meaningful manner and so probably best to avoid if that's the case) Kevin Love had his highest TS in minny prior to joining LBJ and Bosh basically had the same TS in Miami as he did in TOR so again the facts you cite are simply wrong. LBJ also did not score more on less attempts, the numbers show that LBJ has taken, on average, more attempts than kobe. The steals and shot attempts are about the same though. You know what's not, the twice as many all-defensive NBA teams that kobe has over LBJ. You know what else isn't the same, the titles...facts buddy and when you know how to interpret them they paint a very clear picture.

    These also aren't excuses, they're actually ideas that are quantifiable through numbers (which I've stated several of here), and which apparently you can't even read correctly when trying to make an argument because you keep citing incorrect facts lol (e.g., Kobe took more shots to score less: 19.6 > 19.5; I know math is hard, but this one is easy lol).
    First off you are wrong. Kevin Love had his highest TS with Lebron check your stats again.

    Secondly you have been screaming about points scored. I bring up TS which tells us the efficiency of those points scored and all of a sudden you have a problem.

    And thirdly, you want to say he has twice as many all defensive teams? Lolololol...Bron has 4 Times as many MVPís

    Lebron averages more points and more points per attempt as is more efficient than Kobe which makes him the better scorer. Kobe would be Hakeem and Bron would be Shaq in a similar comparison of Whois the better scorer.

  2. #902
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron24th View Post
    What is this thread again?
    the off season thread.

  3. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    If you have a talented enough team, there is a pretty clear path to a title. It's fine for players to play where they want, but when they're intentionally trying to win a title by forming super teams that weakens their individual accomplishment. It doesn't matter so much if it's a big market team, it matters that the team is a super team that was artificially formed. You can certainly make the case that the stars lined up for kobe playing wth Shaq, but then he basically stood around and rebuilt with the organization and took them to another back-to-back. Not sure any superstar has ever done that, which is why I say there is a pretty good chance he would have won anywhere he went.

    As for Kobe vs. magic, even though I slightly like Magic more, I would weight Kobe's 5 a little more than magic's because kobe 3-peated and then won a back-to-back, whereas magic was never able to get a 3-peat. Those things matter when comparing all-time greats.
    no it just increased your odds being that talent is the key but lots still have to go right. Many super teams never won a ring so its no clear path. Yes it hurt your numbers since your no longer the only talent. It does matter if its a team like the Lakers meaning you dont need to leave the talent comes to you. What you think the lockout focused on? Yes Kobe stick around because his wish was granted in landing Pau after demanding a trade. He then finally won two finals mvp 1 less than Lebron.

    Any Kings fans around?
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-09-2019 at 05:54 AM.

  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    the off season thread.
    Nope

  5. #905
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    First off you are wrong. Kevin Love had his highest TS with Lebron check your stats again.

    Secondly you have been screaming about points scored. I bring up TS which tells us the efficiency of those points scored and all of a sudden you have a problem.

    And thirdly, you want to say he has twice as many all defensive teams? Lolololol...Bron has 4 Times as many MVPís

    Lebron averages more points and more points per attempt as is more efficient than Kobe which makes him the better scorer. Kobe would be Hakeem and Bron would be Shaq in a similar comparison of Whois the better scorer.
    MVPs are more of a popularity contest and rarely go to the best player, as inspecting the list of guys who have gotten it will show (again pretty factual just go look at the list and derive a proportion of how often it went to the guy who was considered the best player at the time). The all-NBA defensive team is selected by the coaches, which I brought up because you were yammering on about stls, of which the difference is negligible and will likely by the time LBJ retires be lower than Kobe's due to the decrease in play with age and minutes. The all-nba defensive team is thus a better measure of defensive impact than stls.

    And...although scoring was discussed, I was talking about how Bosh and Love basically went from superstars to role players under LBJ. the numbers are pretty clear that they had their worst years playing with LBJ after coming off of their best years. Not sure why you thought TS was somehow relevant. Even if we ignore the massive flaws with TS, you are making a massive mistake in thinking that more efficient is necessarily more effective, they are correlated for sure, but are ultimately independent measures. Simply because someone makes a measure for something doesn't mean that it measures what it purports to be measuring. Love and Bosh were much better scorers prior to joining LBJ. Basketball is a game where it is not appropriate to compartmentalize statistics, because everything is interrelated and doing so can lead to faulty conclsuions...it's actually a mathematical violation to analyze basketball the way it is analyzed (I won't get into the specifics, but as I've said in many posts before, unless you are qualified to teach and write articles about statistics, you probably shouldn't be looking too closely at the advanced analytics in basketball because you are likely to misinterpret them, as you're doing right now lol). To get an accurate measure of scoring effectiveness you need to factor in ft%, eliminate or significantly weigh shots that are taken to end quarters less then regular misses, consider whether the shot drew defenders and allowed for an easy offensive putback, factor in the openings that are created by defenses having to send help and how that impacts future possessions, etc.). Those are the things that actually affect winning and that is why efficiency as is presently measured is different from effectiveness. Those things won't show up in fg or ts but they will show up in wins and losses and in championships.

    LBJ carefully protects his fg%, whereas Kobe did not. The main difference between their fg% comes down to a little less than 1 shot per game lol. To be clear, this is mathematically true and not an opinion, it is factual and easy to verify (just do some math). they both average just under 20 shots per game and 5% (which is about the difference in their fg%) out of 20 is 1 so since they take less than 20 shots, the difference is going to be less than 1 (not even a full shot). Now LBJ very rarely takes a shot to end the quarter (especially those 40-plus foot shots), whereas guys like kobe always throw those up. Just one of those shots per game is literally the difference in their fg%. For this reason, looking at fg% or TS% (which is basically the same except for adjusting for 3-pt shots) is not a very meaningful metric in terms of measuring effectiveness. When end of quarter shots are accounted for (also important to look at shots late in the clock) it becomes debatable whether LBJ is the more efficient scorer, but even if he is, that would certainly not make him the more effective scorer. There are several guys who were better scorers than LBJ (including kobe) who LBJ was numerically more efficient than based on fg or ts%, but as I've said efficiency doesn't equate with effectiveness. Lastly, as I said in a previous post, when you account for statistical inflation, LBJ doesn't score more than Kobe, Kobe would end up with a decent advantage when inflation is taken into account (also have to account for minutes played because Kobe wasn't playing as many minutes his first 2.5 years). LBJ might score more efficiently, but that is certainly different than effectiveness. In the end, if the advanced analytics are not lining up with wins and losses and championships, we can be pretty confident that there is something is wrong with those metrics. The most important metric in this debate is 5 (really about 5.8 when 3-peat and back-to-back are factored in) to 3 (really like 1.5 when playing in the east, shortened season, and title hunting (i.e., having more talented teams) are factored in). Like it or not 5 (5.8) beats 3 (1.5) and it's a big difference.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 09-09-2019 at 12:37 PM.

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    no it just increased your odds being that talent is the key but lots still have to go right. Many super teams never won a ring so its no clear path. Yes it hurt your numbers since your no longer the only talent. It does matter if its a team like the Lakers meaning you dont need to leave the talent comes to you. What you think the lockout focused on? Yes Kobe stick around because his wish was granted in landing Pau after demanding a trade. He then finally won two finals mvp 1 less than Lebron.

    Any Kings fans around?
    That argument doesn't hold that people come to the lakers, because its' factually false. The organization has only ever had 2 major free agent signings in its entire history (shaq and LBJ). That is it. Every other great player we've had has either been drafted or traded for. Every title we've won has therefore been around teams that we mostly built from scratch through drafting or acquiring assets. Kobe and every other great laker player has thus never formed an artificial super team and then gone on to win a title.

  7. #907
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    Guys really?! lol

    I've never seen a thread being an hostage before, now I just did.

  8. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron24th View Post
    Guys really?! lol

    I've never seen a thread being an hostage before, now I just did.
    Fair point, I'm talking in circles with these guys either way. I'll drop the issue. Back to Dwight!

  9. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron24th View Post
    What is this thread again?
    It's the PSD Laker Forum training camp.

    Love seeing the regulars rounding into game shape....

  10. #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Fair point, I'm talking in circles with these guys either way. I'll drop the issue. Back to Dwight!
    Man I can only salute your bravery to keep talking to Idawg who's capable of repeating the exact same thing a million times...as for IKH, don't know him much but seems like a very stubborn Lebron fan lol.

  11. #911
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    Well heís not catching on that heís being bias. I canít put it no other way. We are both repeating the same things. Thing is I love Kobe he was may favorite player and I enjoyed watching him like no other. But at the same time Lebron was great in his own way and surpassed Kobe in some ways. I did not watch lebron at that degree.

    Its now reported the aging Lebron out his prime wants Davis to be the focal point. Just like we were saying.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-09-2019 at 08:19 PM.

  12. #912
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  13. #913
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    Howard is looking good. Well he always does. This season should be interesting.

  14. #914
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  15. #915
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    Dude back has muscles like his chest. His body fat has to be super low.

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