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  1. #886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Not comparable. Odom never made an all-star game nor was he ever close to being a superstar. Bosh and Love were superstars and were top 5 players or at the very least top 10. Wade was the 3rd best player in the NBA and at the peak of his first-ballot HOF career when LBJ joined him. Kyrie was star and a top 10 player when LBJ came over and a 2-time all-star by that point.

    Yes, LBJ was key to those titles (I never said otherwise), but he artificially created a super teams. It's true that championship teams are loaded, but it's different when you hand pick your roster and in doing so create an unfair competitive advantage for the team you join. Being in the same situation would mean that LBJ never left Cleveland and he got a star to come over and they won a 5 titles (a 3-peat and a back-to-back). Or, if Kobe took on LBJs shoes that would mean in the summer of 04 he left and joined a team like the spurs or the mavs. Obviously if kobe does that he would have won many more titles, but obviously they wouldn't really be worth all that much. He would have likely ended his career with anywhere from 9-13 titles if he jumped from super team to super team during his prime. However, I would not consider him the GOAT if that were the case because those titles wouldn't really be legitimate for him. If LBJ can win a title this year, it will be the first time he's done it in a respectable, honorable manner. I will applaud him for it, not because he's a laker but because he would have done so without entirely gaming the system to get it done.
    no one wanted to go Cleveland. It dont matter how a team is made it guarantee nothing and yoy gain no advantage. No it dont mean Kobe wins more title he only played successfully in the triangle with phil. He stop listening to the coach. 9-13 titles...lol this aint NBA live. No such thing as goat they are all great players.

  2. #887
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    no one wanted to go Cleveland. It dont matter how a team is made it guarantee nothing and yoy gain no advantage. No it dont mean Kobe wins more title he only played successfully in the triangle with phil. He stop listening to the coach. 9-13 titles...lol this aint NBA live. No such thing as goat they are all great players.
    Kobe played successfully in every facet of his career dude. He was pretty effective prior to Phil in a more limited role because of his age (almost won 6th man of the year at one point). He also didn't play in the triangle in 2005 nor did he play in the triangle in 2012 or 2013 and was still the best player in 05 and the second best player in the league in 2012 and 2013. Kobe got hurt after that and was never the same. Kobe Bryant is the most dynamic and skilled offensive player we've ever seen and to suggest that he wouldn't be successful in another system is absurd and frankly disrespectful (and also proven false given the examples I just cited). You should have your laker fan card revoked for such an absurd suggestion.

    And yes, 9-13 titles is what kobe as well as many other great players would have won had they done what LBJ has done. Let's say in 04 kobe decides he wants to join the Spurs, they probably would have won 2-4 titles. Now lets say he decides he wants to come back to the lakers (like LBJ did in Cleveland and lets assume everything plays out as it did and the same players are on the team) that's another 2. Then after 2011 Kobe decides he wants to join an up and coming team (just LBJ did here) and he goes over to gs. He would have likely won another 2-4 titles there. Same would have happened with MJ had he decided he wanted to team up with the Knicks or the lakers or with Shaq had he decided he wanted to join the bulls in 96. Those are all very plausible scenarios, speculative of course because we don't know what would have happened for sure, but it's pretty safe to assume that those guys would have won a lot more titles than they ended up with if they used a similar approach to LBJ.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 09-08-2019 at 05:48 PM.

  3. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Kobe played successfully in every facet of his career dude. He was pretty effective prior to Phil in a more limited role because of his age (almost won 6th man of the year at one point). He also didn't play in the triangle in 2005 nor did he play in the triangle in 2012 or 2013 and was still the best player in 05 and the second best player in the league in 2012 and 2013. Kobe got hurt after that and was never the same. Kobe Bryant is the most dynamic and skilled offensive player we've ever seen and to suggest that he wouldn't be successful in another system is absurd and frankly disrespectful (and also proven false given the examples I just cited). You should have your laker fan card revoked for such an absurd suggestion.

    And yes, 9-13 titles is what kobe as well as many other great players would have won had they done what LBJ has done. Let's say in 04 kobe decides he wants to join the Spurs, they probably would have won 2-4 titles. Now lets say he decides he wants to come back to the lakers (like LBJ did in Cleveland and lets assume everything plays out as it did and the same players are on the team) that's another 2. Then after 2011 Kobe decides he wants to join an up and coming team (just LBJ did here) and he goes over to gs. He would have likely won another 2-4 titles there. Same would have happened with MJ had he decided he wanted to team up with the Knicks or the lakers or with Shaq had he decided he wanted to join the bulls in 96. Those are all very plausible scenarios, speculative of course because we don't know what would have happened for sure, but it's pretty safe to assume that those guys would have won a lot more titles than they ended up with if they used a similar approach to LBJ.
    Did not say he did not post good numbers i said he had no success outside the triangle.

    LOL at 9-13 again this is not NBALive

  4. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Did not say he did not post good numbers i said he had no success outside the triangle.

    LOL at 9-13 again this is not NBALive
    Being a superstar and one of the top 2 players in the entire league is pretty darn successful. By your logic, LBJ has mostly failed his entire career. And yes, 9-13 titles. If a great player title hops as much as LBJ has that's around what they would have. Kobe already has 5, what do you think would have happened if he had joined the spurs in 2004? What would have happened if he leaves for gs in the summer of 2011? If you're an elite player and you keep jumping ship as soon as your team loses and you join up with the best team in the league each time what do you think will happen? It becomes like NBA live because you are effectively forming an all-star team starting lineup. How many titles do you think Curry would win if he decides he wants to team up with the Sixers or the Lakers? Or AD if he decides next year he wants to Join the Sixers or Bucks. That's why forming super teams is weak, because it turns the league into what you get in a video game.

  5. #890
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Being a superstar and one of the top 2 players in the entire league is pretty darn successful. By your logic, LBJ has mostly failed his entire career. And yes, 9-13 titles. If a great player title hops as much as LBJ has that's around what they would have. Kobe already has 5, what do you think would have happened if he had joined the spurs in 2004? What would have happened if he leaves for gs in the summer of 2011? If you're an elite player and you keep jumping ship as soon as your team loses and you join up with the best team in the league each time what do you think will happen? It becomes like NBA live because you are effectively forming an all-star team starting lineup. How many titles do you think Curry would win if he decides he wants to team up with the Sixers or the Lakers? Or AD if he decides next year he wants to Join the Sixers or Bucks. That's why forming super teams is weak, because it turns the league into what you get in a video game.
    So whats different for Lebron. hes been success ever since drafted? I am not going on logic i am going with what happened.

  6. #891
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    So whats different for Lebron. hes been success ever since drafted? I am not going on logic i am going with what happened.
    I didn't say he wasn't a success. I have acknowledged in every other post that LBJ is a great player. However, his championships are not worth as much as guys who didn't title hop to get them (in my opinion). The issues I've raised don't mean he's not a great player, it just hurts his case when compared to other guys who haven't done that and who have still been dominant stars.

  7. #892
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    I did not say If Lebron was drafted by Spurs with PoP or by La in the triangle with Phil he would have won 9-13 titles. What i am saying is so far hes been successful. No different that Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Wade, Curry, etc

  8. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    I did not say If Lebron was drafted by Spurs with PoP or by La in the triangle with Phil he would have won 9-13 titles. What i am saying is so far hes been successful. No different that Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Wade, Curry, etc
    He's been successful, but I think Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan have been more successful.

  9. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I didn't say he wasn't a success. I have acknowledged in every other post that LBJ is a great player. However, his championships are not worth as much as guys who didn't title hop to get them (in my opinion). The issues I've raised don't mean he's not a great player, it just hurts his case when compared to other guys who haven't done that and who have still been dominant stars.
    different time. Teams, coaches, system, teammates do make a difference. Look at Paul Pierce trying to win with Walker. Ray or KG did not win a title with their teams and needed to leave to get it done. NO could not win with Davis hes trying his luck in LA. If he win a title does that kill its worth. If Kobe was drafted by another team Its possible he dont win a title. What about Kawhi he won with two teams.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-08-2019 at 07:15 PM.

  10. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He's been successful, but I think Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan have been more successful.
    This is where it gets murky and why its difficult to measure. It will be base on what one value most. Base on titles yes they have been more success then its possible that Numbers say differently.

  11. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    different time. Teams, coaches, system, teammates do make a difference. Look at Paul Pierce trying to win with Walker. Ray or KG did not win a title with their teams and needed to leave to get it done. NO could not win with Davis hes trying his luck in LA. If he win a title does that kill its worth. If Kobe was drafted by another team Its possible he dont win a title. What about Kawhi he won with two teams.
    Well Kobe won with two completely different cores, so I think it's pretty likely he would have multiple titles even he didn't start out with the lakers. If AD wins a title with the lakers it would not kill its worth because he didn't join a super team to get it done. We actually gave up a lot to get him here so it's not like he's joining a super stacked team. KG actually didn't want to leave minny, minny had to convince him to accept the trade and Boston gave up a lot at the time to get him. It's one thing to be traded to a team or even joining a team where you form a strong group. Its another to just jump on and make them into a super team, which is what LBJ (twice) and what KD both did and so when a player does that I think it drops the value of the title. To be clear though, I mean it drops the value of the championship for the individual as far as their individual accomplishments. It's still a title just the same for the organization and for the fan base. It's just for the individual it doesn't carry as much weight as if they had won it straight up. If LBJ wins a title this year I would consider that to be worth more than both of his Miami titles combined and by a decent amount at that, because it would be the first time in his entire career where he joined a team without a clear path to a title and had a team actually built around him (Shaq did it twice and Kobe did it twice as well and that's how most superstars have done it). That's what has been implicitly meant when we say titles is what matters when comparing great players. Today's superstars apparently were unaware of this and found a shortcut around it, but it will come back to hurt their legacies when the number doesn't carry the same weight as the same number carried for players who didn't do that.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 09-08-2019 at 08:25 PM.

  12. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well Kobe won with two completely different cores, so I think it's pretty likely he would have multiple titles even he didn't start out with the lakers. If AD wins a title with the lakers it would not kill its worth because he didn't join a super team to get it done. We actually gave up a lot to get him here so it's not like he's joining a super stacked team. KG actually didn't want to leave minny, minny had to convince him to accept the trade and Boston gave up a lot at the time to get him. It's one thing to be traded to a team or even joining a team where you form a strong group. Its another to just jump on and make them into a super team, which is what LBJ (twice) and what KD both did and so when a player does that I think it drops the value of the title. To be clear though, I mean it drops the value of the championship for the individual as far as their individual accomplishments. It's still a title just the same for the organization and for the fan base. It's just for the individual it doesn't carry as much weight as if they had won it straight up. If LBJ wins a title this year I would consider that to be worth more than both of his Miami titles combined and by a decent amount at that, because it would be the first time in his entire career where he joined a team without a clear path to a title and had a team actually built around him (Shaq did it twice and Kobe did it twice as well and that's how most superstars have done it). That's what has been implicitly meant when we say titles is what matters when comparing great players. Today's superstars apparently were unaware of this and found a shortcut around it, but it will come back to hurt their legacies when the number doesn't carry the same weight as the same number carried for players who didn't do that.
    Thats possible i cant argue that but again situation changes so again its possible he wont. The stars lined up right for Kobe. Lots of great or very good players never win a title. Again it dont matter how the team is formed. There is no clear path to a title unless you join the defending champs thats an established team. None of Lebron teams was established. Todays stars move where they want to live and work. Kawhi won in Canada he wanted to be in LA.

    If how a team is formed matters then Lakers titles lost meaning since they are a big market team most wanted to play for. Is that not how Shaq ended up in LA? How about Davis?

    Everyone have their own opinion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DIORYIWdiY

    How would winning a title in La stack up against Kobe 5 Magic 5 it may be the least meaningful.
    Last edited by ldawg; 09-08-2019 at 09:44 PM.

  13. #898
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Thats possible i cant argue that but again situation changes so again its possible he wont. The stars lined up right for Kobe. Lots of great or very good players never win a title. Again it dont matter how the team is formed. There is no clear path to a title unless you join the defending champs thats an established team. None of Lebron teams was established. Todays stars move where they want to live and work. Kawhi won in Canada he wanted to be in LA.

    If how a team is formed matters then Lakers titles lost meaning since they are a big market team most wanted to play for. Is that not how Shaq ended up in LA? How about Davis?

    Everyone have their own opinion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DIORYIWdiY

    How would winning a title in La stack up against Kobe 5 Magic 5 it may be the least meaningful.
    If you have a talented enough team, there is a pretty clear path to a title. It's fine for players to play where they want, but when they're intentionally trying to win a title by forming super teams that weakens their individual accomplishment. It doesn't matter so much if it's a big market team, it matters that the team is a super team that was artificially formed. You can certainly make the case that the stars lined up for kobe playing wth Shaq, but then he basically stood around and rebuilt with the organization and took them to another back-to-back. Not sure any superstar has ever done that, which is why I say there is a pretty good chance he would have won anywhere he went.

    As for Kobe vs. magic, even though I slightly like Magic more, I would weight Kobe's 5 a little more than magic's because kobe 3-peated and then won a back-to-back, whereas magic was never able to get a 3-peat. Those things matter when comparing all-time greats.

  14. #899
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    What is this thread again?

  15. #900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron24th View Post
    What is this thread again?
    Yeah no kidding lol

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