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Thread: Polytheism

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    "What is your purpose?" is a subjective question not addressable by science. Nasty is correct: You are confusing the How and Why questions. Science handles "How?" Religion and philosophy grapple with the subjective "Why?"
    OK. I get it! I have several times admitted that maybe science isn’t the right thing to explain what I am trying to understand.

    Let me lay it out: a family member is sick. Another family member tells me that he and I need to have faith in God through Jesus and furthermore that she will pray for both of us.

    Fine, I say. Knock yourself out.

    But I don’t have faith in God. I have faith in — I am putting my trust in — something else.

    Which is?
    Last edited by Crovash; 07-07-2019 at 09:24 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    As I have noted several times in this thread, maybe science is not the correct designation for what I am suggesting.

    As for how science can be an object of faith, I admit, I don’t really know. But then what does faith even mean? I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. Someone else has faith in Jesus. Someone else has faith in the American Dream.

    In fact, even though I am using the word faith, maybe in the end it is simply a way to justify a belief we can’t (yet) prove. A way of comforting ourselves in the face of a capricious existence signifying nothing. In short, faith is nothing more than grasping at straws, to each his own (and I never implied, much less said, that my straw — the object of my faith — was somehow better than someone else’s, though apparently I am guilty of such).
    What do you mean you have "faith" the sun will rise tomorrow?

    Everytime I inhale is this me having faith that oxygen will sustain my body?

    I would not call me counting on the sun rising tomorrow grasping at straws. Nor would I call me believing in a supreme power to which we owe our existence grasping at straws.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    OK. I get it! I have several times admitted that maybe science isn’t the right thing to explain what I am trying to understand.

    Let me lay it out: a family member is sick. Another family member tells me that he and I need to have faith in God through Jesus and furthermore that she will pray for both of us.

    Fine, I say. Knock yourself out.

    But I don’t have faith in God. I have faith in — I am putting my trust in — something else.

    Which is?
    Even this scenario makes no sense to me. We KNOW science has failed people millions of times. Does this mean science is falsehood?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    "" Religion and philosophy grapple with the subjective "Why?"
    I think the key word here is subjective. Theoretically science is not subjective. However these types of questions are subjective in nature, which is why it me they are simply beyond the realm of science.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    What do you mean you have "faith" the sun will rise tomorrow?
    To me, this is pretty basic. I believe that the sun will rise, but since I can’t predict the future, I have no absolute certainty (only the probability based on past experience).

    Follow-up question: is believing in something the same as having faith in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Nor would I call me believing in a supreme power to which we owe our existence grasping at straws.
    Fine by me. My goal is to try to understand my existence, not to pass judgement on others.

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Even this scenario makes no sense to me. We KNOW science has failed people millions of times. Does this mean science is falsehood?
    Who said any thing about truth or falsehood?

    Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, let’s say I accept this...then isn’t my choosing a medical course akin to grasping at straws (“to make a desperate attempt to salvage a bad situation” as per Merriam-Webster)
    Last edited by Crovash; 07-07-2019 at 02:14 PM.

  6. #51
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    You are an atheist that puts value in science above religion/faith (duh). This really isn't complicated or worthy of a place in the religion forum.

    If you want to use make believe definitions for certain words, go ahead. Just don't expect rational people to play along.

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I think the key word here is subjective. Theoretically science is not subjective. However these types of questions are subjective in nature, which is why it me they are simply beyond the realm of science.
    Yep.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    OK. I get it! I have several times admitted that maybe science isn’t the right thing to explain what I am trying to understand.

    Let me lay it out: a family member is sick. Another family member tells me that he and I need to have faith in God through Jesus and furthermore that she will pray for both of us.

    Fine, I say. Knock yourself out.

    But I don’t have faith in God. I have faith in — I am putting my trust in — something else.

    Which is?
    So what you're saying is that because you can't personally explain the scientific principles that make accurate predictions about the world around us, you have faith that these predictions will remain accurate, i.e. faith in science.

    I don't think that's faith. We can reference people who can explain these phenomenon better than we can. We can find a science book or Google a reputable source to help us articulate how the world works according to sound, scientific principles. I don't think that requires faith.

    Science tells us the it will get dark at night and bright again the next morning. Do we need faith to believe this will happen each and every day? If I jump off a 10-story building, do i need faith to believe I will hit the ground, real hard?

    Here's a better example: If I have cancer and I take a pill that was demonstrated in clinical trials to give me a 20-percent better chance of living than if I don't take the pill, do i need to have faith that I will live longer? Absolutely not. Either the pill will help you or it won't. Most likely it will not. But the results will be the same whether you have faith in it or not.

    Let me ask that last one differently: Since i wasn't able to monitor any of those clinical trials, do i need faith in the people running them to believe I have even a 20-percent better chance of surviving? Absolutely, you need to have faith in them.

    So yeah, sometimes you have to take it on faith that something will help you. There have been numerous incidents where scientific records were falsified to carry out an agenda. So I guess when you say you need faith in science, the question becomes, what type of science and in what context?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Science, in theory, doesn't have varying opinions. It is simply facts. If we start adding purpose to those facts we are now stepping out of the realm of science
    Science is a lot more than simple facts. Facts are part of science but the scientific method involves taking these facts to construct an explanation of a complex phenomenon. These explanations are called scientific theories that are either cast aside or accepted based on their ability to make replicated predictions.

    Explanations are rarely perfect and are almost always updated and revised as more information becomes available. But the scientific method is still the best way to explain how the natural world works.

    Believing that we were put here by a Supreme Being requires complete faith since the only evidence for such a being would appear in the supernatural realm which, assuming the supernatural even exists, is impossible to access in the natural realm. And without any way to verify a deity's existence in the natural world, it only follows logically that it requires a leap of faith to believe in its existence.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Science is a lot more than simple facts. Facts are part of science but the scientific method involves taking these facts to construct an explanation of a complex phenomenon. These explanations are called scientific theories that are either cast aside or accepted based on their ability to make replicated predictions.

    Explanations are rarely perfect and are almost always updated and revised as more information becomes available. But the scientific method is still the best way to explain how the natural world works.

    Believing that we were put here by a Supreme Being requires complete faith since the only evidence for such a being would appear in the supernatural realm which, assuming the supernatural even exists, is impossible to access in the natural realm. And without any way to verify a deity's existence in the natural world, it only follows logically that it requires a leap of faith to believe in its existence.
    Sure, what I mean to say is that opinion doesn't play a role on science. It is entirely mechanical and entirely not emotional. In theory.

    I don't think belief in a supreme being is faith. I believe this is a conclusion I have reached through entirely mechanical process. It simply is what it is, regardless if it makes me or you feel good or bad. That's a tangent tho, I have a diff thread about this in more detail.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    You are an atheist that puts value in science above religion/faith (duh). This really isn't complicated or worthy of a place in the religion forum.

    If you want to use make believe definitions for certain words, go ahead. Just don't expect rational people to play along.
    Play along? No, I expect rational people, like nasty and foc, to explain — rationally — why my point was incorrect, which I have admitted now four times, but if you want to keep harping on it day after day, hey, knock yourself out.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I don't think belief in a supreme being is faith.
    Here’s the definition I found:

    “In the context of religion, one can define faith as confidence or trust in a particular system of religious belief, within which faith may equate to confidence based on some perceived degree of warrant, in contrast to the general sense of faith being a belief without evidence.”

    Is this what you would call faith?
    Last edited by Crovash; 07-07-2019 at 07:42 PM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post

    I don't think belief in a supreme being is faith. I believe this is a conclusion I have reached through entirely mechanical process. It simply is what it is, regardless if it makes me or you feel good or bad. That's a tangent tho, I have a diff thread about this in more detail.
    I have no idea what reaching a conclusion through "an entirely mechanical process" means. But I do know this:

    We've already established a supreme being would have to exist in a supernatural realm. We've already established that something that exists in the supernatural realm cannot be detected in the natural realm. And since the natural realm is the only realm that can be observed and studied, anything that exists in the supernatural realm is tantamount to something that does not exist at all, as far as the natural world is concerned.

    Regardless, you cannot do what you say you can. I'm pretty sure we already went around the block a few times on this. No desire to return there.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Here’s the definition I found:

    “In the context of religion, one can define faith as confidence or trust in a particular system of religious belief, within which faith may equate to confidence based on some perceived degree of warrant, in contrast to the general sense of faith being a belief without evidence.”

    Is this what you would call faith?
    I don't entirely understand what the hell that says, lol

    I would say my belief in my specific religion does have elements of faith in it.

    I don't think I could say the same about my belief in god.
    Last edited by nastynice; 07-07-2019 at 09:23 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I have no idea what reaching a conclusion through "an entirely mechanical process" means. But I do know this:

    We've already established a supreme being would have to exist in a supernatural realm. We've already established that something that exists in the supernatural realm cannot be detected in the natural realm. And since the natural realm is the only realm that can be observed and studied, anything that exists in the supernatural realm is tantamount to something that does not exist at all, as far as the natural world is concerned.

    Regardless, you cannot do what you say you can. I'm pretty sure we already went around the block a few times on this. No desire to return there.
    Mechanical process meaning it is entirely based on observation. There is no emotion involved in this process. If h2o is repetitively boiling at 100 degrees then it simply is what it is, cant just start fudging the info because of positive or negative feelings toward water.

    What does "you cannot do what you say you can" mean?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

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