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Thread: Polytheism

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    That doesn't offend, you just seem to be misdefining things, we definitely do not live in a polytheistic culture.

    Theism and belief in God is predicated on the concept that this is indeed a separate entity of sorts, usually beyond natural limitation or limitation of the human mind, to which we are grateful for purposefully allowing existence. Your entire concept is within the natural realm and so really doesn't address the idea of theism.
    OK. You guys win (some more gracefully than others).

    I’ll take the theism out of it and work with the definition of “god” as that which one puts one’s ultimate trust or faith in above all other objects of value. I do not see how this must entail a supernatural being beyond one’s physical or natural experience.

    I put my faith in science (or at least the scientific explanation) for those things which matter in my life. When I get sick, I do not pray for healing; I go to the doctor. When my car does not work, I do not appeal to a supreme being for the fix. When my best friend or a family member dies, I accept that this as the inevitable end of life, and he is dead and gone, a source of nutrition for other forms of life.

    To me this is the ultimate reality of existence — my religion, if you will.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    OK. You guys win (some more gracefully than others).

    I’ll take the theism out of it and work with the definition of “god” as that which one puts one’s ultimate trust or faith in above all other objects of value. I do not see how this must entail a supernatural being beyond one’s physical or natural experience.

    I put my faith in science (or at least the scientific explanation) for those things which matter in my life. When I get sick, I do not pray for healing; I go to the doctor. When my car does not work, I do not appeal to a supreme being for the fix. When my best friend or a family member dies, I accept that this as the inevitable end of life, and he is dead and gone, a source of nutrition for other forms of life.

    To me this is the ultimate reality of existence — my religion, if you will.
    Sure, I'm pretty sure theists go to a mechanic for car trouble too.

    I'm also pretty sure that positive reinforcement or mentality, such as praying, has positive physical effects on human body.

    I kinda see what you're saying, but I'm also kinda lost..everyone believes in these things, we all put varying levels of faith in varying aspects of life. I don't know what you mean by one ultimate faith

    I think this is confusing because science doesn't even attempt to answer the same questions as religion, and vice versa. If we understand religion as a form of philosophy, then from a strictly academic sense these are separate fields of study and should be approached as such.

    But nowadays science and religion are always mixed together in the debate and I believe it is ignorance from both sides which leads to this
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Sure, I'm pretty sure theists go to a mechanic for car trouble too...

    I kinda see what you're saying, but I'm also kinda lost..everyone believes in these things, we all put varying levels of faith in varying aspects of life. I don't know what you mean by one ultimate faith
    Ultimate faith by definition can only be one, a singular. It is the last, the final, the highest.

    Just about every time I encounter a evangelizing theist, I hear something to the effect that I must put my ultimate faith in “God” (or sometimes “Jesus”, who by some altered door of perception is also “God”).

    I choose not to do so. But that does not mean that I am devoid of faith. It boils down to my materialist stance over and against a so-called spiritual stance. I suppose these are ultimately incompatible

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I this is confusing because science doesn't even attempt to answer the same questions as religion, and vice versa.
    I’m going to disagree on this point...

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    If we understand religion as a form of philosophy, then from a strictly academic sense these are separate fields of study and should be approached as such.
    ...because I see religion and science as just branches of philosophy.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Ultimate faith by definition can only be one, a singular. It is the last, the final, the highest.

    Just about every time I encounter a evangelizing theist, I hear something to the effect that I must put my ultimate faith in “God” (or sometimes “Jesus”, who by some altered door of perception is also “God”).

    I choose not to do so. But that does not mean that I am devoid of faith. It boils down to my materialist stance over and against a so-called spiritual stance. I suppose these are ultimately incompatible

    I’m going to disagree on this point...

    ...because I see religion and science as just branches of philosophy.
    No, science is physical science. It questions are physical and tangible in nature, its observations are physical and tangible in nature with answers which themself are physical and tangible in nature. Philosophy makes no such attempt.

    You call it faith to believe in science ?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    No, science is physical science. It questions are physical and tangible in nature, its observations are physical and tangible in nature with answers which themself are physical and tangible in nature. Philosophy makes no such attempt.
    I beg to differ. The original philosophers of metaphysics in Western culture were Plato and Aristotle. In terms of their understanding of metaphysics (definition: “Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality”) the former was an idealist and the latter a materialist. That is to say that Plato posited that true reality is found only in the non-material world of ideas, whilst Aristotle — Plato’s student — argued the opposite: the only true reality is material.

    Interestingly the Christian concept of God as both transcendent (aka spiritual: as in the holy ghost) and imminent (aka material: as in Jesus the Christ) was one attempt to meld these two important threads.

    Later, the 20th century philosopher Alfred North Whitehead said (and I paraphrase) that all of western philosophy is but a footnote to Plato and Aristotle. In regards to metaphysics I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    You call it faith to believe in science ?
    Unequivocally yes.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I beg to differ. The original philosophers of metaphysics in Western culture were Plato and Aristotle. In terms of their understanding of metaphysics (definition: “Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality”) the former was an idealist and the latter a materialist. That is to say that Plato posited that true reality is found only in the non-material world of ideas, whilst Aristotle — Plato’s student — argued the opposite: the only true reality is material.

    Interestingly the Christian concept of God as both transcendent (aka spiritual: as in the holy ghost) and imminent (aka material: as in Jesus the Christ) was one attempt to meld these two important threads.

    Later, the 20th century philosopher Alfred North Whitehead said (and I paraphrase) that all of western philosophy is but a footnote to Plato and Aristotle. In regards to metaphysics I agree.

    Unequivocally yes.
    I guess, today they seem to be clearly diff subjects with clearly diff parameters under which they operate
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I guess, today they seem to be clearly diff subjects with clearly diff parameters under which they operate
    I think that is a correct assessment of the current understanding (every discipline seems to be splitting into smaller and smaller units (cognitive neurochemical development), and I agree that materialism leans towards the hows and spirituality towards the whys, but they crossover at important points.

  8. #23
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    I'm gonna can try to extract what Cro is saying here. He seems to be suggesting that the object of one's faith is in itself a god, with a lowercase "g."

    He doesn't know first hand how that plane is going to land safely. So he puts his faith in science to believe that it will. In this example, science is a god as it is the object of his faith.

    Many people put faith in money to bring them happiness or satisfaction or comfort or love or whatever. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. And since there is no way of knowing until after the fact, money then becomes another god.

    It's an interesting take, one that i don't agree with but one that I find interesting just the same.

    Yes, I'm afraid Crovash is just another atheist trying to give himself another label. I give him an A for his efforts and I applaud him for trying. Good job!
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I am so glad I could entertain you because apparently your life otherwise must be pretty dreary, clinging to your outmoded beliefs and doing your juvenile laughable armchair psychology. But, hey, whatever floats your boat...

    I pity you.
    Well yeah... watching someone desperate for attention is pretty entertaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
    man with hair like fire can destroy souls with a twitch of his thighs.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    Well yeah... watching someone desperate for attention is pretty entertaining.
    Thanks so much for your input too.

    I think I can honestly say that I never really knew myself until y’all enlightened me with your amazing insights.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I think that is a correct assessment of the current understanding (every discipline seems to be splitting into smaller and smaller units (cognitive neurochemical development), and I agree that materialism leans towards the hows and spirituality towards the whys, but they crossover at important points.
    What are those points?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I'm gonna can try to extract what Cro is saying here. He seems to be suggesting that the object of one's faith is in itself a god, with a lowercase "g."

    He doesn't know first hand how that plane is going to land safely. So he puts his faith in science to believe that it will. In this example, science is a god as it is the object of his faith.
    Or that if anything can, it will. And in this case, along with all others, it reveals not just an object of faith to be tried among other possibilities, but the ultimate (as in final) object of faith.

    Obviously, it does not insure success, but it’s the best I got.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Many people put faith in money to bring them happiness or satisfaction or comfort or love or whatever. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. And since there is no way of knowing until after the fact, money then becomes another god.

    It's an interesting take, one that i don't agree with but one that I find interesting just the same.

    Yes, I'm afraid Crovash is just another atheist trying to give himself another label. !
    In view of the traditional definition of “theist”, I concur.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I give him an A for his efforts and I applaud him for trying. Good job!
    Thanks, but I’ve since come to realize that my goals were to (a) offend and (b) seek attention.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    What are those points?
    I think both science and religion attempt in their very distinct ways to address the question: “What is the meaning of an individual’s life on earth?” Not how did I get here (though they both deal with that as well) but more why am I here?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I think both science and religion attempt in their very distinct ways to address the question: “What is the meaning of an individual’s life on earth?” Not how did I get here (though they both deal with that as well) but more why am I here?
    I don't think science attempts to answer that. At all.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I don't think science attempts to answer that. At all.
    Why are we here, according to science? In short: to reproduce. More specifically, to pass our genes to the next generation. That is why we are here.

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