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  1. #16
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    Jul 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obabikon View Post
    Not at all. They will see that the Cardinals give up on players after two bad months, and will ship them anywhere they can get a deal. They'll see a team that was .500... and is completely stripped down to nothing. If they traded away those players, it would be a decade before we'd be good again, and even longer before FA's would think highly of coming to STL. Take everything the organization has build the past 25 years, and flush it down the toilet just to "revamp".
    Exactly.

  2. #17
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    I'll throw out my roster

    Let's say it's July 15th, and we are 5+ back in wild card, and 8+ back in the division (if we are inside either, I'm either holding pat or making minor moves to see if we make marginal improvements and let the roster we came into the season with get it together).

    Then I'm probably trading Wacha, Ozuna, and Jedd.

    For Wacha, we probably aren't getting much. I'd trade him to a team that saw that he was hitting 97 out of the bullpen and let him be a pen option on a team heading for the playoffs. Probably get a high A 22 year old reliever for him. But we'd free up his roster spot.

    For Ozuna, we probably can get an organizations 10th and 15th best prospects. From a team like the Astros, pick a guy with a FV of 45, and a guy with a FV of 40+ (that didn't move too far up or down in the last 3 months)
    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/top-39-p...ouston-astros/

    and for Jedd, we can probably get a similar prospect that we get for Wacha, by simply clearing the room on the roster and avoiding paying his buy-out next year (to a team that may consider picking up his option if he performs well enough, though unlikely).

    So we'd get four prospects back.

    Call it a AA, 22 year old starter, a AA, 22 year old outfielder (with 2 win values and future talent of 3-4 win possibilities), and two high A, 24 year old relievers.

    Not much, but we'd be freeing up some space on the roster and we'd finish out the season with a roster like

    C - Molina
    1B - Goldschmidt
    2B - Wong
    SS - DeJong
    3B - Carpenter
    LF - O'Neill
    CF - Bader
    RF - Fowler

    Bench
    C - Wieters
    IF - Munoz
    OF - Martinez
    Util - Robinson/Edman

    Rotation
    1. Flaherty
    2. Mikolas
    3. Hudson
    4. Wainwright (retire after this year)
    5. Gomber/Cabrera/Helsley/Ponce



    And in 2020, we'd be looking at about $10M to add to the roster, so I'd look at a team like....


    C - Molina
    1B - Goldschmidt
    2B - Wong
    SS - DeJong
    3B - Carpenter
    LF - O'Neill
    CF - Bader
    RF - Martinez/Fowler

    Bench
    C - Knizer
    IF - Munoz
    OF - Thomas/Martinez/Fowler
    Util - Outside signing or Robinson, Edman, Shrock, etc

    Rotation
    1. Flaherty (extended)
    2. Mikolas
    3. Hudson
    4. Martinez
    4. Outside signing like Kyle Gibson or some one similar and internal call-ups like Reyes, Gomber, Ponce, Cabrera, etc, etc.


    If, next July we are out of it again, then you can shop Carlos Martinez, Kolten Wong, Fowler might actually be movable at this point, Andrew Miller, Jose Martinez, etc because now we can actually do that rebuild.

    While guys like Molina are in his last year in 2020, we'd likely not extend him for 2021. Goldschmidt, Mikolas, and Carpenter are still around for awhile, but they can be the vets for the younger players that come up during that time. The rest of the roster that is 30+ can be cleaned out.

    We'd have a new core of DeJong, Carpenter, Goldschmidt, Flaherty, Bader, etc.

    Then you can start actually rebuilding.


    We are stuck in the middle. I agree. But it's easier to do win-now moves with this roster because we are slightly underperforming. To rebuild right now would be a mistake. A re-tool makes sense, and a potential for a 80% rebuild next season could make sense.

    I still believe in a re-tooling if we continue to drift down in the standings though, and those are the three guys I think could get a marginal enough return to move and they aren't on the 2020 roster any way.

  3. #18
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    Oh look, another non playoff team. Go figure.
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  4. #19
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    We have no pitching, our line up is not good. The team is horribly put together. The team needs to be blown up
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  5. #20
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    Carp should not be a part of the core group. Hes old, and hes flat out horrible for 1/4 of the season. Who knows if that's going to change going forward. Hes not a core guy.
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  6. #21
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    Jul 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Oh look, another non playoff team. Go figure.
    Front office has done what they've needed to do to set us up to be a playoff team, and the roster hasn't done what they are capable or should be doing.

    You can't rebuild overnight, and if you want to move our best players, we won't be a playoff team any sooner.

    A rebuild take 3-7 years to go through. You are going to be watching a bad team for a long time, and the roster you just threw at us, this one

    Bader CF - 3 win
    Rogers 2b - 2 win
    DeJong SS - 4 win
    Frazier 3B - 1 win
    Murphy 1B - 1 win
    O'Neill LF - 2 win
    Molina C - 2 win
    Carlson RF - 2 win

    Edman/Munoz/Fowler/Ravelo - 0 win

    Cole - 4 win
    Flaherty - 3 win
    Mikolas - 2 win
    Hudson - 2 win
    Martin - 1 win

    Hicks CL
    Reyes
    Fernandez/Helsley
    Miller
    Cabrera
    Brebbia
    Gant
    Gomber
    3 wins

    Is even worse, even if you could do it, that's an 80 win team (based on the wins I put in there that is). And again, you aren't getting Brendon Rodgers for Paul Goldschmidt.

    If you want a playoff team, your best bet is to hand tight, re-tool, and let the roster we have do what they were designed to do.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    We have no pitching, our line up is not good. The team is horribly put together. The team needs to be blown up
    Paul Goldschmidt, Matt Carpenter, and Paul DeJong are all 4-5 win players.

    Marcel Ozuna, Harrison Bader, Kolten Wong, and Yadier Molina are all 2-3 win players.

    And our bullpen is actually pretty good now.

    But our rotation needs help. Flaherty is easily the best arm in the rotation, and he's not been great or anything. Mikolas has 2 good starts/average starts and then a stinker. And Hudson is getting ground ball outs, but walking too many and allowing too many home runs. The rest of the rotation are question marks.


    I'd like to get a starter. Plenty we could trade for over the next month, such as Stroman or Bumgarner that could make great sense (I'm a fan of Stroman personally, controlled in 2020, has the ability to improve that fastball/changeup combo, word is Giants want a lot of their immature Bumgarner).

    1. Flaherty
    2. Stroman
    3. Mikolas
    4. Hudson
    5. Variety of options - Gomber/Ponce/Cabrera/Wacha/Wainwright/Helsley/Reyes/Gant/Martinez, etc. Whoever is pitching hot gets it.

    That makes us a much better team, and probably a playoff team. And it's just one move.

    Not sure if we have the prospects the Jays would want though.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Carp should not be a part of the core group. Hes old, and hes flat out horrible for 1/4 of the season. Who knows if that's going to change going forward. Hes not a core guy.
    You do realize he was literally just 9th in MVP last year, right? And has been his former self for the last 30 days now.

    Either way, you can't move him until 2021 probably.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Front office has done what they've needed to do to set us up to be a playoff team, and the roster hasn't done what they are capable or should be doing.

    You can't rebuild overnight, and if you want to move our best players, we won't be a playoff team any sooner.

    A rebuild take 3-7 years to go through. You are going to be watching a bad team for a long time, and the roster you just threw at us, this one

    Bader CF - 3 win
    Rogers 2b - 2 win
    DeJong SS - 4 win
    Frazier 3B - 1 win
    Murphy 1B - 1 win
    O'Neill LF - 2 win
    Molina C - 2 win
    Carlson RF - 2 win

    Edman/Munoz/Fowler/Ravelo - 0 win

    Cole - 4 win
    Flaherty - 3 win
    Mikolas - 2 win
    Hudson - 2 win
    Martin - 1 win

    Hicks CL
    Reyes
    Fernandez/Helsley
    Miller
    Cabrera
    Brebbia
    Gant
    Gomber
    3 wins

    Is even worse, even if you could do it, that's an 80 win team (based on the wins I put in there that is). And again, you aren't getting Brendon Rodgers for Paul Goldschmidt.

    If you want a playoff team, your best bet is to hand tight, re-tool, and let the roster we have do what they were designed to do.
    The roster has shown for 3 years that it CANT get it done. We need to get OUT of this crap we are in.

    Rogers is a step up from Wong - big step up.
    Carlson is a step up from Fowler/Martinez
    O'Neill is about Ozuna with better defense

    Murphy would legit just be a stop gap, as would Frazier. 2020 - a building year. Getting our young guys experience. Then Gorman will be ready to take over for Frazier in 2021 with Beer ready to take over for Murphy. Our BP would probably be one of the better ones in the league. Starting rotation would be better than it is now.

    Bader will be older, more mature.
    DeJong will be ready to be the rock
    O'Neill will be a HR hitter. Wont hit for average
    Carlson, I may be higher on him than others, but I think he will give us plus defense and hit about .260
    Rogers would be a year older and will flat out give us more offense than Wong, with ease.

    That's a core group.
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    You do realize he was literally just 9th in MVP last year, right? And has been his former self for the last 30 days now.

    Either way, you can't move him until 2021 probably.
    So there are rules stating Carp can not be traded?
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  11. #26
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    Jul 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    The roster has shown for 3 years that it CANT get it done. We need to get OUT of this crap we are in.

    Rogers is a step up from Wong - big step up.
    Of course he is, he is a top 10 prospect in all of baseball, which is exactly why the Rockies won't be trading him. He's about to become their everyday second basemen for the next 7 seasons.

    Carlson is a step up from Fowler/Martinez
    Maybe, but he needs another year, and we don't know if he will be or not (better than Fowler/Martinez). Guy just got to AA, and if he is better, nothing has changed, we already have him.

    O'Neill is about Ozuna with better defense
    I dunno why you guys love O'Neill so much.

    He strikes out at an insane rate, and while he does have power, it's homers or bust for him. He is struggling in Memphis right now. But either way, he could be the full time left fielder starting next season, you don't have to rebuild for that to be a reality.

    Murphy would legit just be a stop gap, as would Frazier. 2020 - a building year.
    Except, we already have Goldschmidt and Carpenter, both far superior players, that we CAN'T trade right now any way.

    Getting our young guys experience. Then Gorman will be ready to take over for Frazier in 2021
    HOPEFULLY. We have no idea what Gorman is going to be one day. You can't be counting on guys that are in AA right now, no matter the potential. Gorman was in high school a year ago. I certainly hope he'll be MLB ready in 2021 though, because that's about when we can transition away from Carpenter.

    with Beer ready to take over for Murphy.
    We aren't getting Seth Beer either.

    Bader will be older, more mature.
    DeJong will be ready to be the rock
    O'Neill will be a HR hitter. Wont hit for average
    Carlson, I may be higher on him than others, but I think he will give us plus defense and hit about .260
    We already have these guys, nothing changes here.

    Rogers would be a year older and will flat out give us more offense than Wong, with ease.
    We aren't getting Brendan Rodgers from the Rockies.

    That's a core group.
    Look, if the Rockies were making Rodgers available, then literally 29 teams would be offering up a package to get him. He is an elite, future, 5 win infielder with 6+ years of control. We'd have to give them Paul DeJong and top prospects to get him, and we'd have to overpay to beat other teams packages. And they aren't moving him, considering they just extended Nolan for years to come.

    And the Astros aren't moving Seth Beer.


    If these guys were actually available, then it would be something worth discussing, but none of this is realistic.

    You have to come back to reality to discuss what we could be doing next. Talk about moves that could actually happen.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    So there are rules stating Carp can not be traded?
    Yes, he has no trade protection until 2021, which is when his 5/10 rights become vested.

    Also, like obi said. You can't give a guy an extension, and then trade him, and think anyone is going to give you a discount ever again.

    And, nobody is going to want him right now, considering we are taking all of the surplus in the front, and unloading all of the deficit in the back.

  13. #28
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    Gotta do what's best for the franchise. Carp is not it.
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  14. #29
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    Jeffy can you please show me the rule that stats we cant trade Carp or Goldie?
    2019

    QB-Lock
    RB-Montgomery
    WR-AJ Brown, Hakeem Butler
    TE-TJ Hockenson
    Edge-Allen
    LB-Devon White, Blake Cashman
    CB-Joejuan Williams
    S-Dieonte Thompson

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Jeffy can you please show me the rule that stats we cant trade Carp or Goldie?
    They both have no trade provisions, what do you mean the rule?

    They were given no trade protections in their contracts. Doesn't mean they can't be waived by the player, but we don't know the details of those NTC's, as they weren't publicly shared.

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