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  1. #1
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    Pro Life, Pro Choice: Does any of this come from God?

    Full disclosure, I'm pro choice. But this isn't about debating that stance. I won't debate that stance, with anyone. I might point out occasional flaws in logic but in the end, you're arguing an unmovable opinion, a bottomless pit if you will.

    But what I am curious to know here is whether there is anyone who forms his opinion based on what he believes to be God's will?

    I get that some people will always equate abortion at any stage with pure, unadulterated murder.

    I get that there are others, like me, who believe the fetus is 100 percent property of the woman's body and in no way shape or form to be equated with a human being. Both of these are inarguable opinions. No one's changing sides. No one's changing anyone else's mind.

    But do you believe what you believe based on something that was taught to you in Sunday school? Something a preacher told you? Something you read in the Bible? Or something that just fits into your general belief in God, as in, "God said life begins at conception so that's that!" (I don't know that God was ever believed to have said precisely that. I'm just using that as an example).

    And yeah, this fits into a larger discussion of from where do we get our morals? I say empathy toward society as a whole. Others say if you don't believe in God, the ultimate arbiter, you have no basis for what's right and what's wrong. And many others will believe a thousand different things that fall somewhere in between.

    Have at it.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  3. #3
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    My stance (whatever it may be, and I'm not telling) is not based on any moral code or statute delivered by any god.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Full disclosure, I'm pro choice. But this isn't about debating that stance. I won't debate that stance, with anyone. I might point out occasional flaws in logic but in the end, you're arguing an unmovable opinion, a bottomless pit if you will.

    But what I am curious to know here is whether there is anyone who forms his opinion based on what he believes to be God's will?

    I get that some people will always equate abortion at any stage with pure, unadulterated murder.

    I get that there are others, like me, who believe the fetus is 100 percent property of the woman's body and in no way shape or form to be equated with a human being. Both of these are inarguable opinions. No one's changing sides. No one's changing anyone else's mind.

    But do you believe what you believe based on something that was taught to you in Sunday school? Something a preacher told you? Something you read in the Bible? Or something that just fits into your general belief in God, as in, "God said life begins at conception so that's that!" (I don't know that God was ever believed to have said precisely that. I'm just using that as an example).

    And yeah, this fits into a larger discussion of from where do we get our morals? I say empathy toward society as a whole. Others say if you don't believe in God, the ultimate arbiter, you have no basis for what's right and what's wrong. And many others will believe a thousand different things that fall somewhere in between.

    Have at it.
    fanofclendennon:

    Based upon scripture, abortion at any stage is pure, unadulterated murder. All argument that it is a woman's "right" to kill is hogwash, considering the fact that the fetus is a separate human being.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeutralZone View Post
    fanofclendennon:

    Based upon scripture, abortion at any stage is pure, unadulterated murder. All argument that it is a woman's "right" to kill is hogwash, considering the fact that the fetus is a separate human being.
    Thank you.

    "Based upon scripture."

    Since "scripture" is no more credible than anything I can scribble on a piece of toilet paper tomorrow morning, why should anyone care about anything that is "based upon scripture?"
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-14-2019 at 04:35 PM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    .
    I get that there are others, like me, who believe the fetus is 100 percent property of the woman's body and in no way shape or form to be equated with a human being. Both of these are inarguable opinions. .
    lol, what? Who thinks that?

    No, a fetus is a separate entity which is reliant upon a mother's body. This stance legitimately makes no sense to me. I disagree with the Christian stance that abortion = murder no questions asked, but at least that makes sense.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    lol, what? Who thinks that?

    No, a fetus is a separate entity which is reliant upon a mother's body. This stance legitimately makes no sense to me. I disagree with the Christian stance that abortion = murder no questions asked, but at least that makes sense.
    Now we're falling into the bottomless abyss of the abortion debate. I will not go there other than to answer your question: Yes, people think that. But the machinations, logistics, and moral questions surrounding abortion are not part of the religion end of the debate unless belief in God is invoked into the discussion.

    Questions about fetus rights don't fall into this area.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-15-2019 at 08:12 AM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Now we're falling into the bottomless abyss of the abortion debate. I will not go there other than to answer your question: Yes, people think that. But the machinations, logistics, and moral questions surrounding abortion are not part of the religion end of the debate unless belief in God is invoked into the discussion.

    Questions about fetus rights don't fall into this area.
    The fetus is not property of the woman, the fetus is a separate entity. That's not up for debate, it just is. That's how life works.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    The fetus is not property of the woman, the fetus is a separate entity. That's not up for debate, it just is. That's how life works.
    Thats your opinion. It has been a controversial debate for decades.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Thats your opinion. It has been a controversial debate for decades.
    No how could this be up for debate that a fetus is a separate entity? You might as well argue against gravity.

    Maybe we just disagree, but I dont see how we cant recognize the fetus as a separate entity, we know exactly what this is and what we expect it to become. The natural progression of a fetus dictates it be a separate entity.

    What rights that entity has is up for debate. But I dont see how it being a separate entity is.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    No how could this be up for debate that a fetus is a separate entity? You might as well argue against gravity.

    Maybe we just disagree, but I dont see how we cant recognize the fetus as a separate entity, we know exactly what this is and what we expect it to become. The natural progression of a fetus dictates it be a separate entity.

    What rights that entity has is up for debate. But I dont see how it being a separate entity is.
    Maybe the semantics are confusing me. Cells are separate entities too, no?

    Everything, technically, is a separate entity. See, once u start framing the argument that fetuses are separate entiities, it becomes quite clear where your next steps are headed. That's why I'm sure many pro choice folks wont concede your separate entity point. They'll tell you a fetus is merely a collection of growing cells, perhaps on its way toward becoming a separate entity.

    At any rate it is up for debate and interpretation.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    The fetus is not property of the woman, the fetus is a separate entity. That's not up for debate, it just is. That's how life works.
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Thats your opinion. It has been a controversial debate for decades.
    Either way, scripture (and as is often the case, one might well ask — which scripture?) has no authority in this debate. It may have an opinion, but as I have often heard, “opinions are like arseholes; everyone has one.”

    Whether God has anything of value to say on the topic, well, I mean, really, WhoTF knows?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Maybe the semantics are confusing me. Cells are separate entities too, no?

    Everything, technically, is a separate entity. See, once u start framing the argument that fetuses are separate entiities, it becomes quite clear where your next steps are headed. That's why I'm sure many pro choice folks wont concede your separate entity point. They'll tell you a fetus is merely a collection of growing cells, perhaps on its way toward becoming a separate entity.

    At any rate it is up for debate and interpretation.
    No your cells aren't a separate entity, if someone kills your cells they kill YOU.

    I dont really know where it fits in the abortion debate, but I'm just responding to the idea that a fetus is the property of a woman, like an organ. It's not an organ, it's a fetus,its an entirely separate entity
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    No your cells aren't a separate entity, if someone kills your cells they kill YOU.
    y
    I dont really know where it fits in the abortion debate, but I'm just responding to the idea that a fetus is the property of a woman, like an organ. It's not an organ, it's a fetus,its an entirely separate entity
    Ok. What about individual cells, then? Cells die regularly and of course, the body lives. Why arent individual cells each considered "separate entities?

    "Separate entity" is a very broad term. Are you defining a separate entity as something can still be viable when the host body dies?

    If that is your definition, are your kidneys separate entities? A heart? Other organs? They can be transplanted after the body dies and can become viable in another body. A fetus, too, can be kept viable through other means should the body dies. That doesn't mean it isn't the property of the host body while she is alive and healthy.

    It's a matter of opinion.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-16-2019 at 11:16 PM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Ok. What about individual cells, then? Cells die regularly and of course, the body lives. Why arent individual cells each considered "separate entities?

    "Separate entity" is a very broad term. Are you defining a separate entity as something can still be viable when the host body dies?

    If that is your definition, are your kidneys separate entities? A heart? Other organs? They can be transplanted after the body dies and can become viable in another body. A fetus, too, can be kept viable through other means should the body dies. That doesn't mean it isn't the property of the host body while she is alive and healthy.

    It's a matter of opinion.
    I dont know, none of this seems like any actual confusion on your part, more like just playing a word game. I dont know how to say it in legal definition, but in every day normal English a fetus is definitely a separate entity. We know this is the beginning of the cycle of a new human. I'm not saying a separate fully formed human, but just a separate entity

    The way a cute little bunny rabbit is a separate entity. That says nothing about it's legal rights, but it is indeed a separate entity
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

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