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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I dont know, none of this seems like any actual confusion on your part, more like just playing a word game. I dont know how to say it in legal definition, but in every day normal English a fetus is definitely a separate entity. We know this is the beginning of the cycle of a new human. I'm not saying a separate fully formed human, but just a separate entity

    The way a cute little bunny rabbit is a separate entity. That says nothing about it's legal rights, but it is indeed a separate entity
    Since you completely ignored the main point of my last post, I'll state it again: why isnt a kidney a separate entity? A heart? A lung? An individual cell?

    Now, if you just want to say a fetus is the beginning of the cycle of a new human being, that's fine and that is indisputable. But what will always be in dispute is whether this thing that is in the beginning of the cycle of a new human being should immediately be considered a human being with all the rights and protections afforded to human beings.

    That's a conversation I have no interest in taking part of. And no, you don't get to cleverly circumvent that debate with your vague and broad "separate entity" declaration.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-17-2019 at 09:32 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Since you completely ignored the main point of my last post, I'll state it again: why isnt a kidney a separate entity? A heart? A lung? An individual cell?

    Now, if you just want to say a fetus is the beginning of the cycle of a new human being, that's fine and that is indisputable. But what will always be in dispute is whether this thing that is in the beginning of the cycle of a new human being should immediately be considered a human being with all the rights and protections afforded to human beings.

    That's a conversation I have no interest in taking part of. And no, you don't get to cleverly circumvent that debate with your vague and broad "separate entity" declaration.
    I didn't ignore point, I addressed it very clearly. I dont know how to say it in a legal sense, but in every day language sense it's a separate entity. It will develop into a human, the creature that we as mankind afford the most rights and assign the most responsibility to. Every human being on earth is thought of to be a creature with rights amongst it's own kind. A kidney is not. You understand the difference just as much as I do. As far as what the legal difference is, I dont know and dont care, I'm speaking to you in every day language not court room language.

    And I've also already previously mentioned that its rights are a separate discussion.

    I'm not circumventing the debate, I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to refer to a fetus as property of the mother, the same way a kidney is.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I didn't ignore point, I addressed it very clearly. I dont know how to say it in a legal sense, but in every day language sense it's a separate entity. It will develop into a human, the creature that we as mankind afford the most rights and assign the most responsibility to. Every human being on earth is thought of to be a creature with rights amongst it's own kind. A kidney is not. You understand the difference just as much as I do. As far as what the legal difference is, I dont know and dont care, I'm speaking to you in every day language not court room language.

    And I've also already previously mentioned that its rights are a separate discussion.

    I'm not circumventing the debate, I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to refer to a fetus as property of the mother, the same way a kidney is.
    Progress. Other than your one use of "separate entity" you went right to the entire crux of the whole right-to-life -- pro choice debate: You say it is ridiculous to say the fetus is property of the mother.

    Others disagree, vehemently.

    I've made my opinion clear on the subject. But I will not enter into a discussion. It would be pointless.

    My point about "separate entities" is that no ons seems to get overly upset if you transplant a liver, a kidney of some other organs unsuccessfully, lising their viability. That's because no one cares that they are separate entities. They're not considered human beings, as SOME view fetuses.

    Just saying we should be honest.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-17-2019 at 04:19 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Progress. Other than your one use of "separate entity" you went right to the entire crux of the whole right-to-life -- pro choice debate: You say it is ridiculous to say the fetus is property of the mother.

    Others disagree, vehemently.

    I've made my opinion clear on the subject. But I will not enter into a discussion. It would be pointless.

    My point about "separate entities" is that no ons seems to get overly upset if you transplant a liver, a kidney of some other organs unsuccessfully, lising their viability. That's because no one cares that they are separate entities. They're not considered human beings, as SOME view fetuses.

    Just saying we should be honest.
    Ok, and some people dont view muslims as humans, but that doesn't mean we need to cater to that thought process.

    We know too much, we have too much data, its is just not possible to dispute what a fetus is. Its is a very early stage of an actual separate sovereign human being, with their own mind and capability to use it.

    If you are comparing this to a liver then you're the one not being honest. We KNOW what a human is, we have entire systems of law designed around affording rights to a human.

    I'm not saying this means a fetus should have rights, that's a separate debate, but a fetus is definitely a separate entity that's going through a process which we're very familiar with.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Ok, and some people dont view muslims as humans, but that doesn't mean we need to cater to that thought process.

    We know too much, we have too much data, its is just not possible to dispute what a fetus is. Its is a very early stage of an actual separate sovereign human being, with their own mind and capability to use it.

    If you are comparing this to a liver then you're the one not being honest. We KNOW what a human is, we have entire systems of law designed around affording rights to a human.

    I'm not saying this means a fetus should have rights, that's a separate debate, but a fetus is definitely a separate entity that's going through a process which we're very familiar with.
    I was using a liver to invalidate your use of the term "separate entity" which can mean anything. As u point out not all "separate entities" are created equal.

    You're talking about human beings. Say it.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 07-17-2019 at 04:57 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I was using a liver to invalidate your use of the term "separate entity" which can mean anything. As u point out not all "separate entities" are created equal.

    You're talking about human beings. Say it.
    Or just dont pretend we're in a court room and use common sense...

    And we do recognize rights for animals..
    Last edited by nastynice; 07-17-2019 at 05:22 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Or just dont pretend we're in a court room and use common sense...

    And we do recognize rights for animals..
    Dude.

    I am not arguing with you. I'm only saying people will put forth an argument that I will not participate in.

    Got it?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Dude.

    I am not arguing with you. I'm only saying people will put forth an argument that I will not participate in.

    Got it?
    And I'm only saying that's a ridiculous argument. The vast majority of people who use that argument are doing so because they have reached a conclusion and just looking for ways to reinforce it, because theres no actual sense behind that argument
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    And I'm only saying that's a ridiculous argument. The vast majority of people who use that argument are doing so because they have reached a conclusion and just looking for ways to reinforce it, because theres no actual sense behind that argument
    Enjoy.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Thank you.

    "Based upon scripture."

    Since "scripture" is no more credible than anything I can scribble on a piece of toilet paper tomorrow morning, why should anyone care about anything that is "based upon scripture?"
    You asked if any stance on the issue comes from God. He answered. Your choice to believe that scriptures aren't from God are an entirely separate debate.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    You asked if any stance on the issue comes from God. He answered. Your choice to believe that scriptures aren't from God are an entirely separate debate.
    Hardly.

    The issue is whether abortion is against God's will. If the poster were honest he'd have written something like, "We don't know what God's will is but according to Scripture, which many of us believe to be God's thoughts...."

    But he wrote about scripture as though it were synonymous with God's words. I pointed out why they are not.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears but they seem kinda sensible...."

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Hardly.

    The issue is whether abortion is against God's will. If the poster were honest he'd have written something like, "We don't know what God's will is but according to Scripture, which many of us believe to be God's thoughts...."

    But he wrote about scripture as though it were synonymous with God's words. I pointed out why they are not.
    lol, you're just being salty at this point.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  13. #28
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    Abortion is against my will. Everyone else can burn in hell if they want to.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Hardly.

    The issue is whether abortion is against God's will. If the poster were honest he'd have written something like, "We don't know what God's will is but according to Scripture, which many of us believe to be God's thoughts...."

    But he wrote about scripture as though it were synonymous with God's words. I pointed out why they are not.
    This is incredibly weak. The Bible is widely accepted as the word of God and, whether you want to believe it or not, has been proven historically relevant. There is far more credibility to the claim that it is synonymous with God's word than someone who says "this is how I think God would feel about it based on absolutely nothing but my own personal feelings."
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  15. #30
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    Does FoC support 3rd term abortions. At what point is it no longer a womans property to kill?

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