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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I agree on the police state thing. At least the passport is an existing standard and not some new central ID.

    Gerrymandering is on it's way out, so other than that what else ya got?
    What do you mean existing standard? I don't need to have a passport right now for any of my daily activities the point isn't what type of ID it is/you call it the point is starting to make it a centralized form needed for access in different aspects of society. If you want to drive you get a drivers licence and pay etc. to do so for that task specifically. IF you want to travel you pay for passport and do so specifically. If you want to start making passports free and tying that into just the travel/voting aspect fine but adding more is starting to make it a centralized standard of access to police etc.

    What do you mean it is on the way out? Can I have some sort of data about how it has been eradicated in a total type sense? I would also change the voting system/electoral college to represent the people instead of land based representation but we have covered that in other threads to an extent. I mentioned access so either improving the standards set by states or via changing to an internet based election you can work on that too. There are tons I am not quite sure what you mean what else you got but I am not sure you really acknowledged the issues I initially pointed out either so kinda more curious on those.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-13-2019 at 04:44 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino17 View Post
    Voter ID laws and gerrymandering are the biggest forms of voter suppression. All in place to deter minorities from voting.
    So, gerrymandering is going away, and we decided voter ID is going to be replaced by free passports.

    And gerrymandering is not about keeping minorities from voting, it's also about building regions so the vote is as close to even as you can get but the end result goes your way.

    Requiring an ID to register is, I think, a reasonable requirement.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    What do you mean existing standard? I don't need to have a passport right now for any of my daily activities the point isn't what type of ID it is/you call it the point is starting to make it a centralized form needed for access in different aspects of society. If you want to drive you get a drivers licence and pay etc. to do so for that task specifically. IF you want to travel you pay for passport and do so specifically. If you want to start making passports free and tying that into just the travel/voting aspect fine but adding more is starting to make it a centralized standard of access to police etc.

    What do you mean it is on the way out? Can I have some sort of data about how it has been eradicated in a total type sense? I would also change the voting system/electoral college to represent the people instead of land based representation but we have covered that in other threads to an extent. I mentioned access so either improving the standards set by states or via changing to an internet based election you can work on that too. There are tons I am not quite sure what you mean what else you got but I am not sure you really acknowledged the issues I initially pointed out either so kinda more curious on those.
    Passports are an existing national ID that everyone accepts. And air travel "requires" an ID and many state drivers licenses are not accepted while passports are.

    Multiple states have passed non-partisan laws that make gerrymandering near impossible and the supreme court has come down on the side against gerrymandering the last few times cases have made it there. That battle is being won.

    Internet voting is certain to happen eventually.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Passports are an existing national ID that everyone accepts. And air travel "requires" an ID and many state drivers licenses are not accepted while passports are.

    Multiple states have passed non-partisan laws that make gerrymandering near impossible and the supreme court has come down on the side against gerrymandering the last few times cases have made it there. That battle is being won.

    Internet voting is certain to happen eventually.
    Yes that is the point creating a national ID that is required for access to multiple avenues in life creating policing/restrictions and so on via government. Right now it is voluntary to get one but in order to access rights such as voting it would now become required by the state etc. creating a barrier if you don't want to voluntarily sign up for a national ID. You aren't creating a new ID but you are changing the standards around it without changing the name to what it gives access to and so on here. It helps the problem of ID and free but now requires national ID through government to participate while tying said participation with access to voting.

    Oh so some states have started winning the war in multiple ways etc. is what you were getting at? Sure. That is a bit different than the idea this is solved/won and is still an obvious example of having to fight voter suppression still happening (even if the last few times/recently changes are happening). That and ID laws have been a couple of the larger ways to suppress in the past I don't think we should overlook the biggest parts of the conversation. Stop creating barriers and playing team games around voting is an obvious answer and both these problems are examples of how.

    I would think so but who really knows with the politics in this country and how things are handled.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-13-2019 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Yes that is the point creating a national ID that is required for access to multiple avenues in life creating policing/restrictions and so on via government. Right now it is voluntary to get one but in order to access rights such as voting it would now become required by the state etc. creating a barrier if you don't want to voluntarily sign up for a national ID. You aren't creating a new ID but you are changing the standards around it without changing the name to what it gives access to and so on here. It helps the problem of ID and free but now requires national ID through government to participate while tying said participation with access to voting.

    Oh so some states have started winning the war in multiple ways etc. is what you were getting at? Sure. That is a bit different than the idea this is solved/won and is still an obvious example of having to fight voter suppression still happening (even if the last few times/recently changes are happening). That and ID laws have been a couple of the larger ways to suppress in the past I don't think we should overlook the biggest parts of the conversation. Stop creating barriers and playing team games around voting is an obvious answer and both these problems are examples of how.

    I would think so but who really knows with the politics in this country and how things are handled.
    It wouldn't require a passport, but by making a passport free it takes the burden (and the ability to corrupt) away from the states. If a passport was free and accepted as a universal ID it solves the ID issue for people who don't have another form of ID.

    The tide has turned on gerrymandering. I don't think either party is going to be allowed to get away with it much longer.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    It wouldn't require a passport, but by making a passport free it takes the burden (and the ability to corrupt) away from the states. If a passport was free and accepted as a universal ID it solves the ID issue for people who don't have another form of ID.

    The tide has turned on gerrymandering. I don't think either party is going to be allowed to get away with it much longer.
    It would require a passport to vote if you make it so, it would then be more than just the accepted measure for travel etc. so we now have a national ID that is the barrier to not only travel and voluntary but also a barrier to voting which we don't want based on a national ID to police in multiple areas etc. as we stated would be bad overall.

    That doesn't mean it shouldn't still be solved/focused on until the problems go away... I dunno if I get the point. If that is starting to go away and having success why would you want people to stop focusing on it all of a sudden instead of continuing said success by calling it out/fighting against it?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Passports are an existing national ID that everyone accepts. And air travel "requires" an ID and many state drivers licenses are not accepted while passports are.

    Multiple states have passed non-partisan laws that make gerrymandering near impossible and the supreme court has come down on the side against gerrymandering the last few times cases have made it there. That battle is being won.

    Internet voting is certain to happen eventually.
    Many of the states passing laws regarding gerrymandering are not the ones that are we are currently concerned with gerrymandering.

    In regards to voter suppression, it would be reasonable if the state took on the responsibility of making sure everyone was registered for voting ahead of time and IDís were distributed to everyone. And in those cases they were not, there could be easy same day resolutions without onerous requirements on a provisional ballot.

    Also what goes hand in hand without voter ID is closing down many of the areas where you would get these IDs. And they choose to target minority community, specifically the black community, because they know by in large how they vote.

    And internet voting wonít really help much of those whom are vulnerable to voter suppression as that group would likely not be one that accessed a computer or the internet.


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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It would require a passport to vote if you make it so, it would then be more than just the accepted measure for travel etc. so we now have a national ID that is the barrier to not only travel and voluntary but also a barrier to voting which we don't want based on a national ID to police in multiple areas etc. as we stated would be bad overall.

    That doesn't mean it shouldn't still be solved/focused on until the problems go away... I dunno if I get the point. If that is starting to go away and having success why would you want people to stop focusing on it all of a sudden instead of continuing said success by calling it out/fighting against it?
    The point I was making with the passport was not to require it but to make it a universally accepted ID for voter registration and to make it free. A valid other ID would still work and thus a passport would not be required.

    I guess I was just trying to say that I'm no longer as worries or concerned about gerrymandering because there is now significant precedent of it being illegal and losing in court on a regular basis.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeW-Star View Post
    Many of the states passing laws regarding gerrymandering are not the ones that are we are currently concerned with gerrymandering.

    In regards to voter suppression, it would be reasonable if the state took on the responsibility of making sure everyone was registered for voting ahead of time and IDís were distributed to everyone. And in those cases they were not, there could be easy same day resolutions without onerous requirements on a provisional ballot.

    Also what goes hand in hand without voter ID is closing down many of the areas where you would get these IDs. And they choose to target minority community, specifically the black community, because they know by in large how they vote.

    And internet voting wonít really help much of those whom are vulnerable to voter suppression as that group would likely not be one that accessed a computer or the internet.
    There is essentially no community that doesn't have access to the internet anymore. There are people who choose not to use it, but there is no reason they can't still do paper voting. But internet voting will be absolutely transformative to getting younger people to vote.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    The point I was making with the passport was not to require it but to make it a universally accepted ID for voter registration and to make it free. A valid other ID would still work and thus a passport would not be required.

    I guess I was just trying to say that I'm no longer as worries or concerned about gerrymandering because there is now significant precedent of it being illegal and losing in court on a regular basis.
    Well we can create a new ID to send to people who register to vote etc. separately then sure. So what is the cost and what is the thing you are fixing with said cost? I am curious what this big problem is that needs solving by adding this extra step/cost in I guess.

    Alright, that doesn't mean it isn't still a big issue it just means you personally aren't worried about gerrymandering anymore because the change has finally started. I think so long as major issues exists they should be focused on and fixed, I don't think taking a step here or there means issues are solved/move on. If we had some massive reform for the country as a whole then I would get your point but this is still one of the bigger issues until actually fixed on this topic imo and you are writing it off while making some policy for a problem that I am not sure you have even explained etc.

  11. #26
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    Can someone explain to me how voter ID is voter suppression?

    What is the big deal with identifying yourself?

  12. #27
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    Thereís the act, and then thereís the intention behind the act.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Thereís the act, and then thereís the intention behind the act.
    Translation?????

  14. #29
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    lol

    Didn't this guy run his own company..?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Can someone explain to me how voter ID is voter suppression?

    What is the big deal with identifying yourself?
    I do think there is such a thing as voter suppression but I agree making someone have an ID is not my idea of it
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