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  1. #91
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    I remember why I stopped posting on here... no real search for the truth... just a bunch of guys who like to argue at levels way higher than they are capable of... myself included.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    I remember why I stopped posting on here... no real search for the truth... just a bunch of guys who like to argue at levels way higher than they are capable of... myself included.
    Well, in our defense (yours too) we’re dealing with such stuff as dreams are made on, which is to say: truth is a slippery customer.

    I would argue that there is a real search, but maybe not a destination.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    I don’t derive meaning by assuming a deity. If there is a deity who created us, then there is a reason, a purpose. It’s not me assuming meaning... it’s the logical response. You can deny the existence of God.... but you also have to deny the value of any and all life. At least any objective value. You can “love” someone under you worldview but it’s juts star dust “loving” other star dust. Does that really matter?

    An atheistic worldview is a view void of real meaning, real love, real purpose, real anything. If God doesn’t exist then NOTHING you or I do matters one bit. You can say you don’t need God for your morals but you have no real reason to have them, even though you do. Why?
    Since you can't know whether there is a deity but instead just choose to believe one, your choice to believe in such a deity and the assumed meaning that comes with it is all subjective.

    That's just logic.

    Neither one of us needs a deity to experience true love or true meaning. But all are subjective.

    If God doesn't exist, then nothing you or I do matters one bit. Everything you and I do or do not do matters to everyone and the world around us. After we die, all that matters is the legacy we leave behind.

    But that's still something.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    I remember why I stopped posting on here... no real search for the truth... just a bunch of guys who like to argue at levels way higher than they are capable of... myself included.
    It boils down to this: If there is a God that we cannot know about until after we die, then it doesn't matter whether or not he exists while we are alive. Therefore, any meaning we attach to life is subjective.

    If after we die we learn without a doubt there is a God, then, sure, there is objective meaning as per the deity after we die.

    But until then, there is no difference at all whether or not he exists. It is all up to us.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Since you can't know whether there is a deity but instead just choose to believe one, your choice to believe in such a deity and the assumed meaning that comes with it is all subjective.

    That's just logic.

    Neither one of us needs a deity to experience true love or true meaning. But all are subjective.

    If God doesn't exist, then nothing you or I do matters one bit. Everything you and I do or do not do matters to everyone and the world around us. After we die, all that matters is the legacy we leave behind.

    But that's still something.
    But if he does... then the opposite is like true as well, correct?

    Paul writing to the believers in Rome said this:

    “But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”
    **Romans‬ *1:18-20‬ *NLT‬‬

    He is speaking directly for God here, right? So was Paul just trying to manipulate the Roman believers? And if so, to what end? He never took money from anyone, instead desiring to work for a living wherever he went. He was beaten, jailed, and eventually killed for his beliefs.

    In fact, all but one apostle was killed because of what they preached. Thousands of Christians over the last 2000 years have died for their beliefs and Foxes Book of Martyrs says that more Christian were killed because of their faith in the 20 century than the previous 19 centuries combined.

    What makes people willing to die, in many cases horrifically? You can’t simply say these people wanted to manipulate others, although I’m sure there were churches doing so.

    To simply look at everything around us, the incredible complexity of it all and say “ehhh random chance” is ridiculous. That’s not to say you can prove it either. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m not saying it’s science.... and science doesn’t have much to say about God either, although many scientists offer their opinion. You can believe in God AND Science. They’re not mutually exclusive.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post

    Paul writing to the believers in Rome said this:

    “But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”
    **Romans‬ *1:18-20‬ *NLT‬‬

    He is speaking directly for God here, right?
    Is he, now?

    Whoever this “Paul” is or was, he’s just one of a whole lot of people — all over the world — who are (or were) convinced they speak for God (or Allah, Vishnu, Wotan, et al) or, worse, that by their actions they are carrying out God’s will.

    There’s really no way to respond to this post that will further the conversation.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    But if he does... then the opposite is like true as well, correct?

    Paul writing to the believers in Rome said this:

    “But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”
    **Romans‬ *1:18-20‬ *NLT‬‬

    He is speaking directly for God here, right? So was Paul just trying to manipulate the Roman believers? And if so, to what end? He never took money from anyone, instead desiring to work for a living wherever he went. He was beaten, jailed, and eventually killed for his beliefs.

    In fact, all but one apostle was killed because of what they preached. Thousands of Christians over the last 2000 years have died for their beliefs and Foxes Book of Martyrs says that more Christian were killed because of their faith in the 20 century than the previous 19 centuries combined.

    What makes people willing to die, in many cases horrifically? You can’t simply say these people wanted to manipulate others, although I’m sure there were churches doing so.

    To simply look at everything around us, the incredible complexity of it all and say “ehhh random chance” is ridiculous. That’s not to say you can prove it either. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m not saying it’s science.... and science doesn’t have much to say about God either, although many scientists offer their opinion. You can believe in God AND Science. They’re not mutually exclusive.
    No. If he exists but he cannot be demonstrated or observed, seen, measured, experienced, whatever, there is no discernible difference between whether he exists or not. Therefore, all of our meaning and importance must be self-derived.

    You're giving an awful lot of credence to a book that was written a long, long time ago. That's your prerogative and it's why you and I will never understand how the other thinks. You read Paul and conclude, "He's speaking directly for God here, right?" See, I say "wrong," not right. One, it's a book and two, why does He need Paul's quotes in an ancient book to do his bidding? It's where you and I will never come together in agreement.

    But let's get back to God providing objective meaning in our lives and the world around us. Assuming he exists but we can't know one way or the other, who's to say he even gives a flying F about us? What if he just sits there, watching us, not caring whether we live or die, and not providing an afterlife for us when we do? What if God is eternal but we are not?

    You're assuming a heck of a lot about a God that cannot be known, based on what some people have written many years ago. What if there is a God but everything that has been written about him was dead wrong? What kind of meaning do we derive from a world created by that God?

    As I said it's all subjective. You choose to believe certain things about God and from that, you derive meaning. That is no less subjective than my not believing in God and deriving my meaning of life from within.

    Last night, the 18th anniversary of 9-11, the Mets scored 9 runs on 11 hits. The Diamondbacks had 7 hits. There were a total of 18 hits in a game played in New York 18 years after 9-11.

    Was that just an accident or a coincidence? I say yes. Yes, it was. Of course, for all I know, some divine power thought it important enough for the numbers in last night's game to fall just as they did. But I need more evidence than an uncanny baseball score to draw a supernatural conclusion.

    I feel the same way about our Universe.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 09-12-2019 at 08:28 AM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post

    To simply look at everything around us, the incredible complexity of it all and say “ehhh random chance” is ridiculous. That’s not to say you can prove it either. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m not saying it’s science.... and science doesn’t have much to say about God either, although many scientists offer their opinion. You can believe in God AND Science. They’re not mutually exclusive.
    It's important here to know exactly what science is and isn't. Science is merely the study of the natural world in an effort to explain how things work. This knowledge can be used to make predictions. It can be used to create, build, and invent things. It's used routinely to improve our lives.

    But it only applies to the natural world. So while some scientists believe in God, God never enters the realm of science for one very simple reason: Assuming of course he exists, he exists in the supernatural world. That's a place where science NEVER travels. Science is stuck in the natural world.

    Because science cannot delve into the supernatural, it absolutely is science to use natural explanations to explain how the world became as it is. It's probably a little off to call all this "random," with what we know about the laws of physics. But if that's how you want to conclude it, fine. Doesn't make it any less scientific to say that.

    Pointing toward the divine guidance of a supernatural power? That would be anti-science for reasons I just explained.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 09-12-2019 at 10:40 AM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakerFRESH View Post
    If we can’t hold up the accounts of Paul as a reference; then your arguments using “Science” can be disputed the same way.

    You don’t trust Paul of the Bible because of what is difficult for you to believe in the Bible.

    I don’t trust Science..because foundations all Education comes from the Greek-Roman Catholic traditions. The same group who excuted Christ; then issued a decree “say the disciples moved the body” Matthew 28:13

    You started this thread in search for answers. You won’t find it by discrediting teachers and historical journals that preceded the “science” that you have so much faith in.

    Genesis chapter 3 explains where Our problem started. John 3:16-21 explains our answer. Everything in between is narrative of how God’s people kept Disobeying Him and how God is maneuvering through wicked people to bring Jesus (our sacrifice) to correct what happened in
    Genesis 3.
    Yeah, like Job.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I actually read this short story about a man who committed suicide and "woke up" in an afterlife that was worse than the real world and everyone in it was miserable but afraid of committing suicide for fear of waking up in an even worse place.
    This sounds like a fantastic movie.
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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    The little girl was the 13-year-old sister of Tim Tebow's fiance. She was born without a cerebellum, leaving her virtually paralyzed and incommunicative.

    And yesterday, she died, suddenly.

    The family is devastated. But they reasoned it off with, "She's laughing, running, and playing in Heaven, just like we always had hoped on earth."

    So my question is, if God could restore all of her functionality when she arrived in Heaven, why couldnt he do that when she was still on earth with her family?
    https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ister-died.amp
    Simple answer -- it wasn't his will. There are people who think that God does not heal anyone today and others who think that God will heal anyone who prays for it. Both are wrong. God heals when it is his will and he allows suffering when it is his will. He is glorified in both healing and suffering. I believe the "why" behind these questions will be entirely revealed in the next life.
    Chicago CubsChicago BlackhawksBuffalo BillsSouthern Illinois University Salukis

    Naomi OsakaAngelique KerberBianca Andreescu

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    This sounds like a fantastic movie.
    Yes it does
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Simple answer -- it wasn't his will. There are people who think that God does not heal anyone today and others who think that God will heal anyone who prays for it. Both are wrong. God heals when it is his will and he allows suffering when it is his will. He is glorified in both healing and suffering. I believe the "why" behind these questions will be entirely revealed in the next life.
    Why, then, should anyone waste time praying?

    But I digress: If all the horrors of the world are God's will, then God is one God-awful **** head, by far the single most immoral being in our entire universe. All this power yet he has the will to let all these horribly awful things happen to people without even bothering to explain why.

    What an *** hole! Wouldn't you agree?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Why, then, should anyone waste time praying?

    But I digress: If all the horrors of the world are God's will, then God is one God-awful **** head, by far the single most immoral being in our entire universe. All this power yet he has the will to let all these horribly awful things happen to people without even bothering to explain why.

    What an *** hole! Wouldn't you agree?
    Disagree. Hardship builds strength.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Why, then, should anyone waste time praying?

    But I digress: If all the horrors of the world are God's will, then God is one God-awful **** head, by far the single most immoral being in our entire universe. All this power yet he has the will to let all these horribly awful things happen to people without even bothering to explain why.

    What an *** hole! Wouldn't you agree?
    No.

    Suffering has brought many people to God. How many instances have we all heard about someone who was at the literal end of their rope and became a born-again Christian as a result? In these cases, he/she should be thankful for what they suffered through. Without it they may never have known God.

    Prayer is also not wasteful. We don’t always get the answers to our prayers when we want them. Sometimes it can be years before we see that the prayer was answered. A friend of mine told me once to make a log of every prayer request I had made. She said check it and you’ll look back and see how many times they were answered.

    The horrors of the world were brought about by man, not God. It was man who brought sin into the world and with it all of the unfortunate sufferings of every person who has ever lived. But God can use that suffering for his glory.

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