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  1. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Sorry but illustrating this concept for literally any example you can think of, including your specific example, is more sound evidence than numerous fields of science you accept as truth.

    Of course you can apply generalities to specific examples. Your analogy is you making a leap. My generality is completely illustrated within itself.

    You're horrible at analogies, lol
    No your generality is because life is a balance between good/bad literally any good or bad is proof of this balance.

    That isn’t proof lol, it’s the opposite of proof. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. It’d be like me saying “everything that happens is because of me therefore anything you see happening is further proof I did it”.

    It isn’t evidence of anything, it’s a way to rationalize things you can’t explain without having to give evidence lol.

    You can’t just say “good/bad balance” and expect that to be an explanation for why God does what he does. It’s an empty statement, you’d be more correct in saying “I have no idea”, which of course, you don’t.

  2. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    Not just mankind but the universe... all matter.

    And how would you define omnipotent if not the most powerful?
    Someone can be most powerful without being all-powerful. For instance, at a lifting competition someone is strongest, but that doesn’t mean they can lift any weight. They are most powerful but not all-powerful

  3. #618
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    Do you deal in “likelihoods” or “without a doubts” in all areas of life?

  4. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    Do you deal in “likelihoods” or “without a doubts” in all areas of life?
    You're a fascinating guy. Through so much discussion about the Bible in this forum, you've insisted that everything that is written can only be interpreted in a Black and White sort of way: Your interpretation is correct and all others are wrong.

    There are no "doubts" in your mind. Everything is about 100 percent certainty.

    Only when faced with paradoxes and contradictions do you fall back to lines like "I'm free to believe what I want" and "Do you deal in 'likelihoods' or 'without a doubts' in all areas of life?" Again, you don't get to have it both ways. Either stick by your 100 percent certainty assertion or bend and realize that different people have different viewpoints of God and not one is more correct than the other.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  5. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    No your generality is because life is a balance between good/bad literally any good or bad is proof of this balance.

    That isn’t proof lol, it’s the opposite of proof. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. It’d be like me saying “everything that happens is because of me therefore anything you see happening is further proof I did it”.

    It isn’t evidence of anything, it’s a way to rationalize things you can’t explain without having to give evidence lol.

    You can’t just say “good/bad balance” and expect that to be an explanation for why God does what he does. It’s an empty statement, you’d be more correct in saying “I have no idea”, which of course, you don’t.
    Give me an example which doesnt fall within this balance.

    My point seems to have gone completely over your head. I'm not trying to rationalize things I cant explain. I am pointing out to you the manner in which life works. Joy helps us grow, pain helps us grow.

    You then give me a specific example and say WHY THIS specifically? I have no answer, i cannot tell specifically why baby cancer. I cannot tell specifically why ANYTHING. I cannot tell you specifically WHY with baby cancer, with sun burn, with someone being short, with the raiders losing, etc etc. I dont know why any one specific bad thing happens, regarding ANY example, not just baby cancer. But I do know the overall general picture, and this general balance.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  6. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Give me an example which doesnt fall within this balance.

    My point seems to have gone completely over your head. I'm not trying to rationalize things I cant explain. I am pointing out to you the manner in which life works. Joy helps us grow, pain helps us grow.

    You then give me a specific example and say WHY THIS specifically? I have no answer, i cannot tell specifically why baby cancer. I cannot tell specifically why ANYTHING. I cannot tell you specifically WHY with baby cancer, with sun burn, with someone being short, with the raiders losing, etc etc. I dont know why any one specific bad thing happens, regarding ANY example, not just baby cancer. But I do know the overall general picture, and this general balance.
    Agreed... I would even give scripture from Romans 8:28 which says that all thing work together for the good of those who are called.

    All things... not good things but all things.

  7. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Joy helps us grow, pain helps us grow.
    Maybe this is where I lose track from this discussion. I do not think we grow at all — from joy, pain, or anything. And likewise not at all from someone else’s suffering.

    We were dead (for a long, long time), we are alive, we will be dead (for a long, long time).

    At the end of the day, whatever it is that we do in life (some might well call it growth) ends up being irrelevant.

  8. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Give me an example which doesnt fall within this balance.

    My point seems to have gone completely over your head. I'm not trying to rationalize things I cant explain. I am pointing out to you the manner in which life works. Joy helps us grow, pain helps us grow.

    You then give me a specific example and say WHY THIS specifically? I have no answer, i cannot tell specifically why baby cancer. I cannot tell specifically why ANYTHING. I cannot tell you specifically WHY with baby cancer, with sun burn, with someone being short, with the raiders losing, etc etc. I dont know why any one specific bad thing happens, regarding ANY example, not just baby cancer. But I do know the overall general picture, and this general balance.
    Life is balance between good and bad. We know that. But that isn't any actual proof of God or divine intervention. If there was no God, life would still be a balance between good and bad. So if you are saying God causes the good and bad but then say you can't explain any specifics, but you know that the only right answer is those exist because of him, you haven't really told me anything.


    Just because life is balance between good and bad doesn't mean that you have an adequate explanation for all the bad. You've essentially opened yourself up to God doing a ton of bad things for whatever reason he wants without ever questioning him (which is of course, the entire point of the religion).

  9. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Life is balance between good and bad. We know that. But that isn't any actual proof of God or divine intervention. If there was no God, life would still be a balance between good and bad. So if you are saying God causes the good and bad but then say you can't explain any specifics, but you know that the only right answer is those exist because of him, you haven't really told me anything.


    Just because life is balance between good and bad doesn't mean that you have an adequate explanation for all the bad. You've essentially opened yourself up to God doing a ton of bad things for whatever reason he wants without ever questioning him (which is of course, the entire point of the religion).
    I never said this is proof of god or divine intervention...

    What do you mean by adequate explanation for the bad?

    No I've opened up myself to understand many concepts and truths about life which others are apparently struggling with..
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  10. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I never said this is proof of god or divine intervention...

    What do you mean by adequate explanation for the bad?

    No I've opened up myself to understand many concepts and truths about life which others are apparently struggling with..
    Alright, so we are in agreement that a balance between good and bad isn't proof of God or divinity, OK, so in the context of talking about a universe where God exists and allows children to die of cancer, how is invoking good/bad balance any kind of argument if you admit it's not proof of God?

    Good/bad balance could very well happen without God at all. So how is it a defense for child cancer in relation to God's creation?

  11. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Alright, so we are in agreement that a balance between good and bad isn't proof of God or divinity, OK, so in the context of talking about a universe where God exists and allows children to die of cancer, how is invoking good/bad balance any kind of argument if you admit it's not proof of God?

    Good/bad balance could very well happen without God at all. So how is it a defense for child cancer in relation to God's creation?
    My argument was never that good and bad is proof of god. It's that good and bad are in a balance which you dont seem to necessarily acknowledge .

    Its not a defense for child cancer, it's me pointing out to you aspects of this balance of good and bad which you didnt think of .
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  12. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Maybe this is where I lose track from this discussion. I do not think we grow at all — from joy, pain, or anything. And likewise not at all from someone else’s suffering.

    We were dead (for a long, long time), we are alive, we will be dead (for a long, long time).

    At the end of the day, whatever it is that we do in life (some might well call it growth) ends up being irrelevant.
    You don’t think pain (emotional) is a necessary part of the human experience?

    If life is irrelevant, why do we have morals? Is the prospect of prison the only thing that stops you from being a selfishly insane narcissist?

    Surely there is more to life than non-life, then life then non-Life Again?

  13. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    My argument was never that good and bad is proof of god. It's that good and bad are in a balance which you dont seem to necessarily acknowledge .

    Its not a defense for child cancer, it's me pointing out to you aspects of this balance of good and bad which you didnt think of .
    I'm aware that there is a balance of good and bad. I'm aware that bad and good happen. Does that mean that all good and bad are in equal proportions overall? Not necessarily. Does that mean they are in equal proportion for every event? No.

    Again, I'm aware of good and bad being a balance, but that doesn't mean it's a valid argument when talking about why God would allow child cancer. Sure, there is a good and bad balance, but that doesn't tell us why there is a good life balance, nor does it tell us specifically why that action (child cancer) is absolutely necessary for a good/bad balance.

    Essentially, you seem to think that simply saying "good/bad balance" explains everything and there is no deeper thought needed. I disagree.

  14. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm aware that there is a balance of good and bad. I'm aware that bad and good happen. Does that mean that all good and bad are in equal proportions overall? Not necessarily. Does that mean they are in equal proportion for every event? No.

    Again, I'm aware of good and bad being a balance, but that doesn't mean it's a valid argument when talking about why God would allow child cancer. Sure, there is a good and bad balance, but that doesn't tell us why there is a good life balance, nor does it tell us specifically why that action (child cancer) is absolutely necessary for a good/bad balance.

    Essentially, you seem to think that simply saying "good/bad balance" explains everything and there is no deeper thought needed. I disagree.
    It’s a dualism argument. Equal and opposite forces battling it out, think Star Wars.

    Personally, I believe the Bible teaches that God is sovereign over joy and suffering. I think there is value in both. One is obviously easier to experience than the other but personal growth happens faster with the suffering than with joy.


    IMO of course.
    Last edited by The20thK; 11-20-2019 at 08:14 AM.

  15. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    It’s a dualism argument. Equal and opposite forces battling it out, think Star Wars.

    Personally, I believe the Bible teaches that God is sovereign over joy and suffering. I think there is value in both. One is obviously easier to experience than the other but personal growth happens faster with the suffering than with joy.

    IMO of course.
    Well it's not really like Star Wars because God is infinitely more powerful than Satan (and Darth Vader just looks way cooler lol), but I get the concept.

    I've already went over this with Nasty, but you came into the conversation late so I'll explain what I did to him. Yes, suffering builds character in general, but that is not an absolute that can be applied to all suffering. For instance, a baby that dies of child cancer did not grow personally, they died. There was no personal growth. So obviously that suffering wasn't to help their personal growth. If the baby dying of cancer was to help those around it grow, well isn't that a little evil to kill a baby just so other people can build some character?

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