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  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well it's not really like Star Wars because God is infinitely more powerful than Satan (and Darth Vader just looks way cooler lol), but I get the concept.

    I've already went over this with Nasty, but you came into the conversation late so I'll explain what I did to him. Yes, suffering builds character in general, but that is not an absolute that can be applied to all suffering. For instance, a baby that dies of child cancer did not grow personally, they died. There was no personal growth. So obviously that suffering wasn't to help their personal growth. If the baby dying of cancer was to help those around it grow, well isn't that a little evil to kill a baby just so other people can build some character?
    Depends... if youíre assuming that this life is the most important thing, then maybe it is. If you believe that eternity is waiting for us, and you can suffer for a few months while your pain means that others will be able to grow, and then you spend eternity in heaven? Maybe itís not so evil.
    Last edited by The20thK; 11-20-2019 at 03:47 PM.

  2. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    Depends... if youíre assuming that this life is the most important thing, then maybe it is. If you believe that eternity is waiting for us, and you can suffer for a few months while your pain means that others will be able to grow, and then you spend eternity in heaven? Maybe itís not so evil.
    By that logic, it wouldn't be evil for someone to kill a child then right? The child gets to experience eternity and the pain helps others grow.

    My point is, how can it not be evil for God to kill a child to help others grow but it is evil for a person to kill a child to help others grow?

  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    By that logic, it wouldn't be evil for someone to kill a child then right? The child gets to experience eternity and the pain helps others grow.

    My point is, how can it not be evil for God to kill a child to help others grow but it is evil for a person to kill a child to help others grow?
    This.

    Morality can be viewed under an entirely different lens if there is another life after this one. All of a sudden, death isn't the final concept it otherwise would be. It's not such a tragic consequence.

  4. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    By that logic, it wouldn't be evil for someone to kill a child then right? The child gets to experience eternity and the pain helps others grow.

    My point is, how can it not be evil for God to kill a child to help others grow but it is evil for a person to kill a child to help others grow?
    Because the creator of life knows everything and we do not. IF God is all knowing and all loving, then anything He does has to be viewed through that lens.

    So it really comes down to this... do you believe that God is love? If you do, youíll view these actions as ultimately loving. If you donít, you question why He does these things.

    Did your father ever do something you didnít understand? But later, after recovering more info, finally understood why?

  5. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm aware that there is a balance of good and bad. I'm aware that bad and good happen. Does that mean that all good and bad are in equal proportions overall? Not necessarily. Does that mean they are in equal proportion for every event? No.

    Again, I'm aware of good and bad being a balance, but that doesn't mean it's a valid argument when talking about why God would allow child cancer. Sure, there is a good and bad balance, but that doesn't tell us why there is a good life balance, nor does it tell us specifically why that action (child cancer) is absolutely necessary for a good/bad balance.

    Essentially, you seem to think that simply saying "good/bad balance" explains everything and there is no deeper thought needed. I disagree.
    I never said that good and bad were equal for any event, much less every event

    Well of course, understanding this balance doesnt tell us specifically why ANY action is absolutely necessary.

    Your last paragraph is ironic, the entire issue in our conversation is you are not giving any deep thought to what it is I'm saying.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  6. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    By that logic, it wouldn't be evil for someone to kill a child then right? The child gets to experience eternity and the pain helps others grow.

    My point is, how can it not be evil for God to kill a child to help others grow but it is evil for a person to kill a child to help others grow?
    Wouldn't a better question be how can it not be evil for god to kill an adult but it is evil for a person to kill an adult?

    Would you agree or disagree with this statement, god is evil for not making humans immortal. Agree?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    Because the creator of life knows everything and we do not. IF God is all knowing and all loving, then anything He does has to be viewed through that lens.

    So it really comes down to this... do you believe that God is love? If you do, youíll view these actions as ultimately loving. If you donít, you question why He does these things.

    Did your father ever do something you didnít understand? But later, after recovering more info, finally understood why?
    This is ispo facto logic. If God is all knowing then everything he does is good. Why is killing babies good? Because God did it.

    Not great logic. If we don't start with the premise that God is all knowing and all loving and judge each act on its merits, would you come to the conclusion that someone who kills babies is all knowing and all loving? The only reason anyone believes God is all knowing and all loving is because he told us he is. Would you accept that as proof if someone else made a claim and their only proof was them telling you?

  8. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I never said that good and bad were equal for any event, much less every event

    Well of course, understanding this balance doesnt tell us specifically why ANY action is absolutely necessary.

    Your last paragraph is ironic, the entire issue in our conversation is you are not giving any deep thought to what it is I'm saying.
    Excellent, then we are in agreement. Good/Bad balance in life is not an adequate explanation for why babies get cancer and die.

  9. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Wouldn't a better question be how can it not be evil for god to kill an adult but it is evil for a person to kill an adult?

    Would you agree or disagree with this statement, god is evil for not making humans immortal. Agree?
    I disagree. As I have said repeatedly, the difference is the ability to exercise free will. An adult has had many years to exercise their own free will. A baby has not. If a person cuts short a man's life, that is his own free will interrupting the other person's free will. If a baby gets cancer, that is the result of nobodies free will.

    Also, technically God has made us immortal hasn't he? We will exist for eternity, either in Heaven or Hell or Purgatory.

  10. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is ispo facto logic. If God is all knowing then everything he does is good. Why is killing babies good? Because God did it.

    Not great logic. If we don't start with the premise that God is all knowing and all loving and judge each act on its merits, would you come to the conclusion that someone who kills babies is all knowing and all loving? The only reason anyone believes God is all knowing and all loving is because he told us he is. Would you accept that as proof if someone else made a claim and their only proof was them telling you?
    No I wouldnít accept that from a person... because a person didnít create me, the universe or the anything else... theyíre just another creation.

    You seem to have a problem with my presupposition... but not with your own?

  11. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I disagree. As I have said repeatedly, the difference is the ability to exercise free will. An adult has had many years to exercise their own free will. A baby has not. If a person cuts short a man's life, that is his own free will interrupting the other person's free will. If a baby gets cancer, that is the result of nobodies free will.

    Also, technically God has made us immortal hasn't he? We will exist for eternity, either in Heaven or Hell or Purgatory.
    To be clear, God is evil if he allows babies to get cancer but women who have abortions are not?

  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    No I wouldnít accept that from a person... because a person didnít create me, the universe or the anything else... theyíre just another creation.

    You seem to have a problem with my presupposition... but not with your own?
    Other than that God told you he created you, the universe and everything via the Bible, what other evidence do you have that he did?

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    To be clear, God is evil if he allows babies to get cancer but women who have abortions are not?
    Well, babies are definitely babies. There is no dispute whatosever that a baby is a baby. But there seems to be plenty of disagreement over whether a fetus is a baby.

    Also, God is supposed to be all powerful and all loving. A woman is but just another flawed human being like the rest of us. So there's that.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  14. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Excellent, then we are in agreement. Good/Bad balance in life is not an adequate explanation for why babies get cancer and die.
    Of course, it was never an EXPLANATION for anything, again it's just something I recognize which you dont, so I brought it up to you. I never meant to EXPLAIN WHY bad things happen, just pointing out that this is the nature of life. If that makes someone evil to you, haha, ok, I never tried to argue against what is 100% opinion. What's the point of that?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  15. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I disagree. As I have said repeatedly, the difference is the ability to exercise free will. An adult has had many years to exercise their own free will. A baby has not. If a person cuts short a man's life, that is his own free will interrupting the other person's free will. If a baby gets cancer, that is the result of nobodies free will.

    Also, technically God has made us immortal hasn't he? We will exist for eternity, either in Heaven or Hell or Purgatory.
    Yes but you dont acknowledge that aspect of afterlife..

    So the difference is exercising free will? If a grown man died of natural causes that is the result if nobody's free will, that is God killing them, right?

    What difference does it make if someone got to exercise free will or not? The action if someone dying is the same. It's the same "injustice" against both individuals, is it not?

    So if someone is 15, got to exercise their free will, and gets killed in a very slow and brutal way from a natural disaster, there is nothing wrong with this? This doesnt make you question gods morality?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

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